How Joy Moves
In this opening episode of The Joy Experiments, Leila Ainge speaks with brand strategist Ange Friesen about the messy, beautiful process of chasing joy in the middle of change. From swapping city life in London for a countryside Airbnb (complete with cows and no coffee machine) to redefining work, routine, and identity, this conversation explores how joy doesn’t always look how we expect — and why that’s the point.
- Brand strategy is about the soul of who we are.
- Ideas want to come into the world and need to be nurtured.
- Lifestyle changes can lead to unexpected joy and creativity.
- Boredom can enhance creativity by allowing space for new ideas.
- Rituals and routines are essential for grounding and joy.
- The importance of a supportive environment for personal growth.
- Mindfulness is key in navigating life changes.
- Finding joy in small daily rituals can enhance overall happiness.
- Place and attachment significantly influence our identities.
- Embracing change can lead to personal and professional growth.
https://www.beautifuluseful.co/
https://www.leilaainge.co.uk
Transcript
So welcome to the podcast to Ange Hi Ange.
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:It's lovely to have you here.
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:I thought it would be useful for everyone to get to know you a little bit.
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:So do you want to just say a little bit about who you are and what it is that you do?
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:Yes, absolutely.
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:So my name is Ange Friesen.
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:I am a brand strategist and a writer ah who is usually based in London, but at the moment
baseless.
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:So we'll get into that a little bit more.
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:I work mostly with product brands, but basically with anybody who has an idea for
something that they think is really cool and special that they want to bring into the
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:world and turn into a product or a business.
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:my background started as a copywriter and then I trained as a psychotherapist because I
thought I wanted to be a therapist.
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:ah And then I got to the end of the training and realized I just wanted all the therapy
for myself and all of the kind of interesting insights as to how people work, which is
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:totally applicable to brands.
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:And so now I kind of think about my work as bridging those two, those two past selves.
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:to really be able to dive deep with people to find the soul of a brand.
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:For me, brand strategy is really about who we are at the deepest level, what is it that we
do, how do we share that with the world, which I think is uh some kinds of therapy is
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:doing the same thing.
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:And yeah, that's the overview of who I am and what I do.
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:I like the way you describe brand being the soul of who we are.
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:I don't think I've heard that before.
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:That really kind of sits with me.
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:I think about our identity a lot.
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:So I'm a social scientist, so I'm thinking about our social identity and our individual
identity.
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:How do people kind of show up with you with their identity?
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:And how do you understand identity and then the link with soul?
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:Well, because for me it's so interesting because I do not love personal brands.
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:I don't love working with people who are just like, hey, I'm a coach.
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:I love those people.
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:one of my best friends is somebody who I started working with in that way.
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:But I've realized that when it's a person, there's so many layers.
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:are so many blocks that can get in the way.
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:There's so much that's going on internally as a person that can...
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:make it really hard to hone in on that thread of like one clear idea.
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:And I really respect the people who can do that well.
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:But for me, it's really working with the idea and the soul of the idea.
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:And that's something I don't know if you've seen the TED talk.
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:Oh, who the woman who wrote Eat, Pray, Love, Liz Gilbert, did a TED talk about creativity
and like ideas and how ideas pass from person to person.
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:And I really have had that experience with working with people that ideas have, there's
something that wants to come into the world, that's how I see it.
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:And it's a matter of tuning into that and getting past sort of our perceptions.
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:You still have to get past those same things of like, I should be doing this.
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:That's the biggest one is people have like all of these shoulds about how they think their
brand should show up and what they think they should be doing.
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:it's like, so I use like,
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:I'll do a meditation with somebody, if I have the kind of client and it's the kind of
relationship and the person who I think can explore that way, I'll do a meditation where
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:it's like, let's connect with the soul of the idea and see what's there and get underneath
all of that sort of like top level thinking.
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:And it's really, really fun.
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:That's my favorite part of what I do.
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:I could listen to you all day and I, you've started blogging on such that I really enjoy
your blogs.
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:So, and I think the other thing that I really enjoy being connected to you is just the
storytelling that you do on Instagram and your Instagram account.
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:think it sits with that idea of soul actually, because your Instagram account for me isn't
a
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:a personally branded account is not in your face.
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:But I was thinking last night around the questions I was going to ask you and it's like, I
feel like I know you quite well.
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:We've met once physically, I think it's an award ceremony.
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:And we've been in a community together at some point, but we've not spoken probably for
over a year or so.
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:But I think I know you because...
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:I think some of those things come through.
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:when I think about you, I think about cats, think about travel, I think about Japan, I
think about stripes.
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:Stripes are one of the things that comes up, and black and white stripes.
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:And I think you have this kind of brand-like photo that I see a lot, and then you show up
like that as well.
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:So there's quite a lot of congruence with what you talk about and who you are.
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:em And I love the...
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:probably, I don't know if spiritual's the right kind of word, but I like that woo side of
you as well.
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:It's like really, I don't know, find it really calming.
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:So yeah, I was just really excited to have you on the pod because your storytelling
recently has been so interesting to me.
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:um From the perspective of psychologists who work with people around things like ritual
and routine, and you talk about with branding, people have those barriers and should
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:haves.
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:And I see people come into my coaching space and consultancy space with things that like
frameworks or rituals that are no longer serving them or working for them.
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:So I wondered if you could just tell us a little bit about your recent swap of life
because you've swapped London with all of its local coffee shops for I think most recently
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:a wander through a field with cows.
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:Yes, and I've stopped wandering through the field because of the cows.
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:It's shocking.
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:So, my gosh, there's so much.
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:the beginning of the story is about two and a half months ago, almost three months ago,
getting a phone call from my estate agents and saying, hey, you need to be out of your
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:house in two months.
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:um And we had been renting.
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:a flat in London, so I'm Canadian.
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:You might be able to tell from my accent that I am not, in fact, British.
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:um But I, so I grew up in Canada and I moved to the UK about five or six years ago to be
with my girlfriend.
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:And ah so we've lived in a beautiful flat.
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:I was in love with my flat.
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:Like I would say not on a daily basis, but on like a monthly basis, I would just look
around and be like, oh, I love our flat so much.
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:I don't ever want to leave.
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:And then I get this phone call and essentially the landlords were moving back.
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:They had been living away for a few years and they were moving back into the flat.
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:And so the first thing I did was I cried.
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:And then the second thing I did was to start rethinking what it means and what has to
happen now because kind of the first instinct was, boy, we're gonna have to find a new
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:flat.
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:We're gonna have to find like.
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:Prices in London are wild.
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:ah I don't know if we'll find something we like as much.
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:The neighborhood we want to live in, maybe we can't afford, like all of these things.
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:And then I don't know exactly what shifted, because it was pretty quick.
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:was within about the day, essentially, was thinking about, so Chimmy is my partner, and so
Chimmy and I had always talked about like, oh, it'd be great to do some slow travel.
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:it would be great to spend some time in Spain.
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:Oh, blah, blah.
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:But when you're paying,
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:an excessive amount of money for your living space and it's not yours, so you can't just
put it on Airbnb.
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:All of those things are challenging.
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:And I was like, okay, well, if you take the expensive flat out of the equation, what's
possible?
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:And so pretty quickly I was like, okay, well, we can do those things.
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:Let's go, let's turn this into an adventure.
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:um We had had some, over the last year, Shimmy has...
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:reduced her hours at work to have a better quality of living, but of course that has the
money that goes down as well.
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:And with me being freelance, there's kind of ups and downs.
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:So it was like, okay, maybe this is a chance to both rethink how we are operating
financially and turn it into something fun.
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:So that's what we did.
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:ah And so about three weeks ago, we set off on our first place.
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:We didn't have a place lined up.
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:So basically we put all of our stuff in storage.
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:We had nothing set up.
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:two weeks before the move.
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:Chimmy goes into ChatGPT and gives it our parameters and says, we're like, I can't
remember even what she said, but basically like, she was like, we want somewhere like not
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:too far from London, um like a cute, cute village.
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:Like we wanted to try kind of a totally different lifestyle.
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:And so ChatGPT suggested Tisbury.
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:ah
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:And so that's where we started looking.
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:We went on Airbnb.
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:We found a place that looked really cute.
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:We didn't realize until after it was booked that it was the studio.
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:So it's us in one room.
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:So right now I'm in a tiny little guest cottage, not in Tisbury.
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:It turned out that it was so 10 minutes away by car, which means about two hours away
walking.
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:So we show up.
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:We're just in the middle of nowhere.
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:We don't have a car.
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:So we've been trying cottage life for the last three weeks with, yes, cows and bugs and
expensive taxis to get anywhere.
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:No hipster coffee shops, which you mentioned, which are my favorite thing of all time.
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:I miss like bubble tea and hipster coffee shops are my two things that I miss.
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:um But having a like feeling so happy just to be exploring in that new way.
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:I like the way you kind of talked about that mindset shift of almost like a release.
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:we, know, without this expensive property each month, what can we do?
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:What do you think has been the biggest shift in your mind and body then since going to the
cottage?
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:So it's interesting because it's not what I expected.
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:both Chimmy and I are quite, we love experimenting.
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:We love learning about ourselves.
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:And so no matter what it's been like a glorious experiment and very quickly it became
clear like, we are not cut out for this lifestyle.
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:Like, yeah, I can't remember what you said about the field with the cows.
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:And I said,
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:I've stopped going in the field because basically there's a walking path.
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:in order to get to, there's one shop that's walking distance.
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:It's about 25 minutes.
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:There is one route that you can take like the highway or whatever you call a highway here,
like the A30, whatever the like, it's like lorries, it's like car, it's just like vom,
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:vom, vom.
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:We tried to take that to go to the bus one day and felt like we were gonna die the whole
time.
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:And so we're like, never again.
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:And then there's a walking path and we're like, great, we found the walking path.
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:It takes you through some fields.
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:It's marked as a footpath.
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:And then we came home one of the second or third time we took this walk and there's just
like 30 cows.
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:Like I called it a gang of cows because it genuinely was just this gang of cows in the
field that we need to walk through to get back to our house.
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:You
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:just like, what do we do?
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:And so we went around them, but people meanwhile have told us like, no, you don't just
walk through the field with cows.
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:And it's like, okay, so then what do we do?
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:So basically I just sit at home and then we book a taxi for like 30 pounds return to go to
the village like once or twice a week.
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:So I've learned like.
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:I'm worse off living in the country.
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:You'd think that I'd be like, I'm going for glorious walks.
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:Like I'm surrounded by nature.
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:My body feels so free.
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:Like absolutely not.
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:That is not the case.
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:I'm sitting inside my little cottage and I'll go outside and like look out and I'll get
some sun on my face for a few minutes.
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:But I miss parks.
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:I miss my neighborhood walks.
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:I feel more stuck.
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:And I think that's because
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:I've grown up in cities my whole life.
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:I've grown up in at least medium to large cities.
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:um And so I was curious.
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:It was like, what will it be like?
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:Maybe I will have that sense of like, oh, my whole nervous system will relax and I'll feel
free.
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:That was what I expected.
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:That's what I wanted and kind of expected to happen.
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:And what I learned was no, no, in fact, like you really like cities.
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:Like parks are nice.
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:So you actually end up missing the things that you thought you'd enjoy moving away from.
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:I think it's so interesting.
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:spent, oh, I spent a decade or more living either in London or Manchester and where I live
now.
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:I mean, if I look out my window, I can see cows.
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:So I'm very much in the country.
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:And I would walk through, I mean, I walked through a gang of
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:not a herd, a gang of cows, oh last week with a friend but I did say to my friend I'm not
that keen on cows and then we avoided them on the way back so I think that's totally
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:normal and rational to be thinking about that.
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:In that case then how has the changing environment then because I mean you talked about
there expecting perhaps your nervous system to relax and to be at one with nature and all
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:that kind of razzmatazz but how's this
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:three week journey if you like impacted your creativity then.
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:Well, it's interesting because I think it's made me realize like how important, because my
favorite moments have been when we've gone and done something.
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:So essentially on the weekends, we've gone for our trips into Salisbury and we went to
Frome, which I don't know if you've been, but was beautiful.
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:Like I fell in love with it because it's just like artsy and independent, but like cute
and like Cobbledy.
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:And those have been the moments that ah
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:where I feel like inspired and alive and happy.
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:And it's similar because so what we do in London with friends are called adventure days
where we just pick a neighborhood and pick sort of a thing to do and just go off and
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:explore something new.
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:And so I think it's pretty much the same, just a slightly different setting, but those are
the things that really give me juice for the rest of things.
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:um
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:I think if I wasn't spending so much time on TikTok, then maybe my creativity would be
like, because I think that boredom does something good for creativity when you can let
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:yourself actually experience the boredom.
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:But instead I have just like spent a lot of time scrolling.
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:Why do you think that is?
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:I think, so it's interesting because I watched a video that Chimmy sent me the other day
and was like, do you think this is accurate?
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:And it was about ADHD.
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:And so I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was like 36 or something a few years ago.
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:And um it was like the idea that the ADHD brain needs to be operating at a hundred percent
at all times.
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:Like, and so if you are like, I need different levels of stimulus.
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:So like if I'm sitting on the couch and I'm doing data entry.
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:let's say I'm doing something boring, then I can have the TV playing and I'm fine.
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:Like I'm in a bubble where sort of I've got just like, I know what I'm doing.
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:Whereas there was this one time that we were playing this game that involves sort of math
and adding things up and Shimi was trying to sing along and play the Hamilton soundtrack
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:at like 10 out of 10 volume.
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:And I was just like.
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:Listen, I cannot deal with this.
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:And she was surprised because I'll be like working and watching TV.
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:So why can't I deal with a little bit of music?
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:And so she played me this video.
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:I'll see if I can send it to you.
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:It was really interesting.
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:But it was like, oh, I do recognize that is like, I kind of want my brain to be like
maximum stimulus at all times.
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:And so I think I'm doing that.
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:to myself despite knowing.
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:So I did a 10 day, like the silent meditation 10 day retreat thing, the Pupashana
meditation training.
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:And that was my only experience in life being truly bored and also being like really
inspired.
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:And I know, so I know that when I do that to myself, it's valuable, but it's not
comfortable or fun.
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:And so I avoid it.
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:I think we have to um try hard at some stuff.
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:And that idea in the video, I think, if I'm understanding it correctly, is the idea that
getting the brain to be cognitively busy is something that there's a certain threshold
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:that we can work comfortably at versus uncomfortably, or where perhaps we're not able to
have that executive function working in the way that we would need it to.
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:So if you're having to think,
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:at meditation.
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:think a lot of people who begin meditation, I always say I'm really bad at meditation, I'm
very poor at being able to shut my brain down from all the thoughts in my head.
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:So I have to really think about it and I find meditation very tiring as a result.
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:And I don't think that's an unusual concept for some people, whereas others will go into
meditation and find it quite easy to relax because perhaps that's the state they're in
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:most of the time.
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:It's really interesting, I think, how
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:different people experience these kind of things that we believe to be like one particular
way of doing it.
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:So creativity being one particular way or boredom being one way.
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:And actually it looks all different to different people.
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:I think one of the things that I really wanted to ask you about as well was your kind of
coffee routine because...
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:Talk to me about, go back to your um flat set up in London and your routine.
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:Certainly if it's just you and Chimmy together, what is your coffee routine like?
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:Well, so I need to come back to something before I get there, which is as long as I've
lived with Chimmy, I have been clear that one of my priorities is a hipster coffee shop.
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:And I say that and I'm just like, does the word, but like an independent good coffee shop
within ideally a five minute walk up to a 10 minute walk.
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:but that has been on our list of non-negotiables when we're looking for flats, which is
not hard in London.
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:There's independent coffee shops all over the place in most neighborhoods, but that for me
is a priority.
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:And I don't know why it's a priority, but just the amount of joy that it actually gives
me, and I noticed it a while ago, because I'll go for a little walk, and sometimes I'll go
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:to the faraway coffee.
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:I like having a few.
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:This sounds so ridiculous.
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:But so and like I sit there and I'm having my little iced latte in the afternoon and I'm
just like this brings me a Surprising amount of joy and I don't know where it come from.
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:I don't know why but it just like that moment brings me so much joy, so In our flat in
London.
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:We had a cute hipster coffee shop around the block For a while.
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:I was going every day like every morning.
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:I would go and I would get my iced latte
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:For Christmas two years ago, Chibi bought me a fancy espresso maker.
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:And so then it was like, OK, yes, every day buying lattes at hipster coffee shop is a bit
much.
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:Let's try doing it at home so that then really you get the pop of joy when you go once or
twice a week and you have even more joy.
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:And so that was our coffee setup was I have my little
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:whatever, I don't know what the brand is, but I have my nice milk and my nice coffee beans
and I make my iced latte and basically every day, I, again, with ADHD and like habits,
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:like I find habits incredibly challenging, but when it's coffee, like that is probably the
one habit or routine that I have that is a non-negotiable.
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:um
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:Yeah, and then so here we've got like, we don't even have a kitchen in where we are.
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:We've got a hot plate and I brought our little like, stovetop espresso maker.
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:We don't have a freezer, so there's no ice for iced coffees.
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:like it's...
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:So anyway, that is my coffee life in London and then my coffee life here.
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:completely different.
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:the question I have to ask then on this chat GPT prompt, are you updating this prompt now
with some prompts around hipster cafe?
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:Definitely.
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:So we've definitely learned from this experience that unless we have a car and a freezer,
I would say that country life is not doable for us.
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:Village life, think we could do.
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:Like if we're somewhere where we're like close to the train station and there's some
shops, I think we could do it.
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:But I don't think we will be.
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:We've learned a lot about.
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:what we need and how to make sure that we will actually have the accessible and the stuff
that we want from life accessible in our future places.
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:So we're coming back to London on Friday to have Sit for Friends for about a month and
then go from there and we'll see where we end up.
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:And then are you going to, so is the idea to do this for like a year then to, kind of be
almost like digital nomads a little bit or?
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:I would say not a year.
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:And the timeline is kind of like, basically it feels like we've flung ourselves into the
universe and we're just seeing what happens.
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:There's no real plan, which can be challenging in and of itself.
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:So we kind of had to, it took a little while for us to get on the same page about what we
wanted and what we expected.
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:um And we identified two priorities.
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:And basically we agreed that as we...
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:make plans, we have to be meeting these two priorities.
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:And on the one hand, that's saving some money and trying to live in a way where we're not
quite spending as much as we were before and having it be an adventure.
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:And so when we make decisions about where we're going, then those are the two things that
we both need to because on my side, I want the adventure.
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:also want to say like we've kind of a little bit differently balanced in that Chimmy would
save money and move to
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:random flat in a random suburb and stay there for a year and just like save a bunch of
money.
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:Whereas I'm like, no, I need this to be fun and like interesting and an adventure at the
same time.
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:And we know that we probably want to be somewhere more long term by winter.
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:I don't think winter is the most fun time to be traipsing around.
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:So we also do have two cats who are now running around the flat.
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:So yeah, traveling around with two cat carriers and a load of suitcases.
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:also had like, so we have a lead on a potential apartment that would probably be full of
fall, but if that doesn't happen, I think we want to be settled somewhere by November or
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:December.
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:So right now it's July and we set off in June.
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:So I guess what is that?
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:Five or six months at least.
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:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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:So I'm imagining then, so you're in this studio and some beds and the food prep area is
quite tiny, you've got this hot stove, no freezer.
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:How have you then made it a home from home?
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:What things have you done that have brought you a bit of joy?
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:I don't know if you saw this post that I did on Instagram because I was really excited
about my I bought a couple of containers from Amazon like Okay, so because one of the
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:things that we when we packed up all of our stuff in our flat the number of boxes That I
had to pack into other boxes like because I just love like having stuff Organized nicely
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:like the box for the sweaters and the box for the makeup.
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:I just had an excessive number of plastic bins, like the nice IKEA ones with the swoopy
sides um that Shimmy thinks are ridiculous again.
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:And so when we got here, I brought my skincare stuff and it was just sitting in this uh
cardboard box.
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:I had a cardboard box and on the bedside table,
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:had all of my skincare and random stuff that would go on my bedside table in this
cardboard box.
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:And I would just look at it and be like...
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:And so I went on Amazon and was like, I'm sorry, I just have to buy a couple of more
storage containers.
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:And so I bought these like white storage containers with like the bamboo dividers so that
it's like the, you know, like the ones that has eight little slots so that like, okay, the
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:moisturizers can go in here, the lip stuff can go in here, the tweezers can go in here.
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:So that was my one...
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:big 11 pound purchase to really like, and again, the amount of joy that I got opening that
up and being able to put my things and be like, they're so nicely organized.
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:Yes, it feels like that was the one thing that I did um that really made me feel settled.
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:And I was just like, okay, that's fine.
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:I'm going to have to pack them up into my suitcase.
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:I'm going to have to take them from place to place.
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:But
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:that's a grounding thing that makes me feel at home.
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:That makes me feel at home and it makes me feel like set and happy.
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:Yeah.
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:What was the, there was this big thing a few years ago, wasn't it?
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:Was it the, is it Marie, Marie Kondo?
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:Like that kind of like packing craze and tidiness and, and, I'm just getting images of you
needing that kind of structure in your ADHD life and that being a grounding thing for you.
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:Yeah, well, because it's interesting because so like, shimmy.
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:So yes, I can end up with piles if I'm not careful.
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:I do end up with piles no matter what there's going to be some piles of like books and
like clothes and things.
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:But so yeah, I love even when I was a kid, I loved to like organize my room and rearrange
things and like get everything.
330
:properly organized because then it's gonna turn into chaos again and then I do it all over
again.
331
:Whereas Chimmy, so because, but that means I have to like pull everything out of the
closet.
332
:It's spread out all over the room.
333
:I put all of the things together and Chimmy comes in and she's just like overwhelmed and
stressed out and I'm just like, just go to the office, like go somewhere else for six
334
:hours because it's gonna be like this for a while.
335
:But then it's organized and fresh and lovely.
336
:Whereas Chimmy just throws everything into a closet.
337
:and it will be a mess in the closet.
338
:And then when she needs something, she'll pull it out.
339
:then so we're so completely different, but I need that feeling of organization.
340
:And I love the act of it.
341
:Like I find it just fun to organize things.
342
:Is there anything about a temporary kind of ritual or rhythm that you've kind of fallen
into while you've been in this place?
343
:Anything you think you might take with you that's something new for you?
344
:I think the only thing is sort of because what we did before we moved and as we were
deciding what was next is we sat down together and we decided like what are those
345
:priorities?
346
:And also we looked at like everything that we want in a home and how important are those
things?
347
:How do they stack up for each of us?
348
:um And our lists are similar but quite
349
:different, but so it's things like neighborhood cuteness of neighborhood walkability
proximity to transit closeness to our friends good groceries hipster coffee shops like all
350
:of the things that We have identified are important to us and then we rank them and we say
this is the most important short-term For this next move.
351
:This is the most important and then it's kind of reassessing
352
:And so really it's that check-in about what do we want next, what's important, how are we
making that decision?
353
:And I think that's something that has been really valuable and it has also helped us sort
of learn and shift direction rather than just going where the wind takes us.
354
:um And I think that I will probably keep.
355
:I think that idea of the ritual and routine being quite important and I suppose that not
being so obvious in that initial list, but it's really obvious now and especially through
356
:your storytelling that this, you know, the loss of the hipster coffee, I don't know we're
joking about it, but I mean, these things are important to us.
357
:We create our sense of home and place.
358
:We're placemakers, aren't we?
359
:And homemakers and...
360
:It doesn't matter how transient we are as individuals and how we move through life,
there's stuff that really holds us in the space that we're in.
361
:And I think that's just what I found so beautiful about your storytelling recently.
362
:It's like, it's just a real window into what it looks like when you move and do something
so different and actually what you think you might want to need.
363
:And then it was just something so simple as the, need my coffee shop.
364
:Yeah.
365
:Well, and it's interesting because I feel like some people thought we were going to be
miserable.
366
:And some of the stories I'm telling, I don't think it sounds like I'm miserable, but it
sounds like I might be miserable.
367
:And I've been not miserable whatsoever.
368
:Like the whole thing, I would not have done anything differently.
369
:I wouldn't have made a different choice about where to be, even knowing like, okay, we're
going to be stranded.
370
:Because the experience itself has been joyful.
371
:Like, and I think it is that idea of like,
372
:adventure and learning and what just what is this like?
373
:um It has been really fun.
374
:And also it felt like making that decision sort of like has shaken up the energy in our
lives in a way that I think is valuable and I think is rare.
375
:I would say that myself as a person I tend to get or maybe this isn't true anymore, but it
was definitely true when I was younger that I would end up stuck in situations.
376
:that I didn't really love and wasn't really happy in, but were just how it was.
377
:And I didn't really realize, like this was probably my biggest learning in life is like,
oh, I can make different decisions.
378
:I can decide what I want and take action to make those things happen.
379
:And I think that's a common, from speaking with other people in my life sometimes, I think
that's a common thing to believe or thing to get stuck in.
380
:And that's the biggest thing I wish I could shake people and say sometimes is like,
listen, you can make a different choice.
381
:You can do something.
382
:If there's something that doesn't feel right, even if it's scary.
383
:even if you have no idea where you're gonna end up and you're gonna be in an Airbnb in the
middle of the country for weeks at a time.
384
:There's just, I think there's value in that.
385
:I think it's really interesting how we can feel stuck.
386
:And last season, I was exploring this kind of space in between liminal spaces and how
interesting they are.
387
:They're real growth spaces in our lives.
388
:you know, people move for lots of different reasons.
389
:Sometimes people move for, they like moving, they don't like sitting still.
390
:They like the hit of dopamine from going from one place to another, or perhaps people move
because they want to change and they think,
391
:the physical move, I think we call it a geographical cure fallacy or something, because
actually just moving yourself from one geographical location to another doesn't change
392
:anything really, unless you're doing something to think about who you are inside.
393
:Because I disagree with that in some ways.
394
:I know that people do that sometimes, but I feel like I've done that and it has completely
changed my life.
395
:Not this move, but one of the biggest things I've done was when I was in my late 20s.
396
:So I grew up in Vancouver on the west coast of Canada and growing up it was, in my
opinion, the most beautiful city in the world.
397
:It's still one of the most beautiful cities in the world and I loved it.
398
:and I couldn't imagine living anywhere else.
399
:And then I hit my Saturn return years and like I decided, so graduated during the
recession, like couldn't find a job, decided to go do a master's and basically I had two
400
:choices.
401
:Like I could go, I applied to two universities, one in Vancouver.
402
:and one across the country in Halifax, which is as far away as I could get from Vancouver.
403
:And I remember praying not to get into UBC because I knew that if I did, I would stay
where I was and I would, and I had, like I was 28 and I was miserable basically because I
404
:had.
405
:grown up with a significant amount of trauma and had not really done the healing with that
and was still in that world where that was sort of, I was still steeped in that
406
:environment.
407
:And for me, I didn't get into UBC.
408
:So I had to go move across the country.
409
:And that move was like the beginning of my life as an adult.
410
:And for me, it's that specific scenario too, is like shifting out of a place where you
kind of,
411
:are stuck in an energy or an environment that isn't healthy and getting out of that and
into something else, that changed my life completely.
412
:And I know exactly what you're talking about, about the people who are constantly trying
to move because they think they'll leave themselves behind.
413
:In my case, I didn't need to leave myself behind.
414
:I needed to leave some of the people and the situations that I was stuck in so that I
could learn who I was in a different environment.
415
:that different context.
416
:think our relationship with place and attachment is so layered and complex.
417
:I mean, you're, you know, trained psychotherapist and I imagine, I mean, as a
psychologist, kind of, think about attachment in a different way as a psychotherapist
418
:would I imagine, but that whole attachment piece is so integral to our early years and
419
:being able to form and create those really stable relationships.
420
:And I suppose what we're really talking about here is that positive fracturing of it to
enable to move forward and get that joy.
421
:Mmm.
422
:What would a psychotherapist say about, I suppose about your, about those kind of big
scale moves?
423
:what, tell me about the move from Canada to the UK.
424
:What was it that prompted that?
425
:well, that was also interesting because so I had lived in Toronto for almost 10 years.
426
:So after I finished my masters, I moved to Toronto with like $300 in my bank account.
427
:A friend of mine let her let me come live in her apartment with her until I found a job.
428
:And so I had been there for about 10 years and loved Toronto a lot.
429
:I still love Toronto.
430
:It's one of my favorite cities.
431
:ah But
432
:just felt this like I just felt that there was I was feeling this
433
:I don't know if it's a yearning for something more or different or a knowing that there
was something different coming because I had no reason to know what was gonna happen.
434
:I mean, aside from like, let's say some kind of intuition, I don't know what's going on,
but I just knew that I wanted to try something.
435
:knew and I had thought about moving to Europe in some way, like getting some kind of visa,
but there was nothing that was really a good fit, like the kinds of visa that were
436
:available.
437
:um And then I met my girlfriend, so Chibi, who we'll all know by now.
438
:um I met her in San Francisco at conference and we fell in love very quickly.
439
:um
440
:we basically we started talking that weekend and then we spent like 16 hours a day on
WhatsApp or on the phone like for months until I came to visit her in the UK and because I
441
:was freelance I was able to just come for six weeks so it was like hey I'm coming to visit
and I'll go back when I go back and then she would come so we were kind of long distance
442
:for about nine months and then she tried to move to Canada.
443
:but the visa situation didn't work out.
444
:so by then, so I'm a commitment shy Aquarius.
445
:Like I, she was all in.
446
:She was like, yep, like let's get married.
447
:I'm, and I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
448
:Like you can move to Canada, but you have to get your own apartment even though we're
going to spend every night together.
449
:Like, but by the time, it was about a year and a half later that I decided to move to the
UK because um
450
:because she could get a better job in the UK and just life seemed like it would make more
sense.
451
:ah And so I was comfortable enough, like we had gone through enough that I felt like,
okay, I'm not doing, like, I'm not gonna move across the world and be with someone who
452
:turns out to be like a terrible human and end up alone.
453
:um
454
:But yeah, I found it just really interesting that I kind of had this sense, like I knew I
had talked about it.
455
:One of the reasons I didn't become a psychotherapist is because I sort of knew that the
amount of hours that I would have to go do and registration, like I just kind of knew I
456
:didn't want to be in Toronto for much longer.
457
:And then it happened.
458
:you move to the UK.
459
:And here we are.
460
:Yeah.
461
:And that I feel like is the thing that changed for me was being in a relationship with
somebody really loving.
462
:it's like, I've never been homesick ever.
463
:I don't really understand.
464
:And I don't know if it's that kind of like ADHD, like when they talk about what you don't
really miss people necessarily.
465
:like there's this thing where like, exactly like I love my family.
466
:I love my friends.
467
:I miss them.
468
:But day to day, just am like, yep, it feels like you picked me up and put me in a new
place and I am my home.
469
:Like.
470
:And the big change was moving in with somebody and starting a life with somebody and
having my family for the first time that I was creating.
471
:Yeah.
472
:I think from the outside looking in and I mean we all see obviously your created view of
the world and we all put our own curated views out there but from the outside looking in
473
:there's this idea that that relationship that you have and the home that you've created
and the rituals it's all it all brings joy and that that joy thread kind of runs all the
474
:way through everything that you're doing and I was kind of interested I think to hear a
little bit about how
475
:I suppose how your work then is looking for soul and I've not really thought about how
soul and joy are connected before.
476
:So that's something really intriguing to think about, I think.
477
:Well, and I think a lot of what I've talked about today, kind of like there's these, I've
had this huge shift that I have gone through in my life.
478
:And I've talked about sort of there's that first part of moving from Vancouver to Halifax.
479
:And then, so my career before now, I was a librarian.
480
:um And I worked in libraries, which I loved, but always felt like it was not my, like, I
was not a librarian.
481
:Like I worked with people who loved their job and were great at it.
482
:And you could tell that that was the...
483
:like where they belonged.
484
:And I felt kind of like an outsider and it was like, this is fun, but I'm doing it because
I need a job.
485
:I wasn't doing it because it was something that like I felt profoundly passionate about.
486
:And so I burnt out, which is I think what happens a lot when you're doing something that
you don't actually love or get fulfilled by.
487
:um And so for me, that was the other big shift was making that decision to like,
488
:Basically, I didn't feel like I had a choice.
489
:I burnt out.
490
:I couldn't ever go back.
491
:And so I had to try something new.
492
:And there were no jobs in the world that I, like I'd look at job boards and be like, no,
none of these look appealing at all.
493
:And so it was like, okay, I just have to try being freelance.
494
:And that's when I discovered joy in work and joy in my life.
495
:And again, it's like, oh, I can do work that I'm great at that.
496
:is something the world needs that helps to create really cool things in the world.
497
:I do get a lot of joy from my life, but it's something that I feel like, I've always been
a happy, optimistic person, even when I was a really sad, depressed person.
498
:I don't know how those two things go together, but for me, somehow they do.
499
:And now I get to be a happy, optimistic person who experiences a lot of joy in the way,
the things that I've.
500
:both been able to create and the things that have found their way into my life.
501
:And I feel very fortunate.
502
:One of the reasons I was doing this season on Joy was that was my word for the year.
503
:So I this thing.
504
:And it's the first year that I've actually picked a word and stuck with it.
505
:But there was a lot of things for me that started to make sense towards the end of last
year.
506
:I nearly quit my PhD.
507
:I wasn't enjoying it.
508
:uh I was working on a contract which wasn't freelance.
509
:So I felt like an employee.
510
:didn't like it.
511
:Yeah.
512
:And, you know, the, were just other things where I'd lost my love of running and running
was such a huge part of my identity.
513
:So I'd set up this idea that I'm going to seek joy this year through running through my
work and through my study.
514
:And it's been like this kind of gentle re grounding and return.
515
:I call it a bit of a return to.
516
:understanding where I find joy and how I find joy and I think it's quite an active thing
to be joyful.
517
:It's not something that just lands in your lap, I think you have to go and seek out and
find it.
518
:So I'm kind of, I think I'm really interested in these conversations we're to have in this
season, it's just to explore what joy looks like for different people and I really
519
:appreciate your perspectives today.
520
:I've really just such a noisy person.
521
:I've really enjoyed just understanding how your moves go and where you're going next.
522
:But yeah, especially in that.
523
:So for you, what have you learned?
524
:So we're like half the year, a little more than half the year in.
525
:What have you learned about finding that joy?
526
:the running was the, the most profound thing.
527
:m I think for me, I tied a lot of the running in with status around, I'd done ultras
marathons before.
528
:um I definitely felt like I was beating myself up because I couldn't run how I used to
run.
529
:I'd had an injury a few years ago.
530
:um And then I started peeling back the layers and go, but what was it?
531
:went and I started looking at photos and Facebook and the things that I was posting, the
things I was saying during the time when I was really enjoying my training.
532
:And it wasn't the running, it was just all the social bit.
533
:was the sending messages to my friends when I'm out running and, my God, I'm dying, I hate
this, why am I running?
534
:And, you know, just having the social bit.
535
:So this year what I've done is I've just involved people in my running journey and I've
just...
536
:Like I'll get on a treadmill and send someone a little silly message.
537
:Oh, I'm getting on to do a run.
538
:And, and I think I, that was the joy.
539
:It was just such a social thing for me.
540
:And then running had become quite insular over lockdown.
541
:Um, and I never really went back to doing it in a social way.
542
:So that's what I've learned there.
543
:With the PhD, there were a couple of things.
544
:think one of them was I was trying to sprint to the end of it and I'm doing it part time.
545
:I'm going to be doing this for like till 2031.
546
:And I trying to sprint to the end and not taking time to just sit with the process of it
and sit with the uncomfortableness of it.
547
:I like to be structured.
548
:I like to know what I'm doing.
549
:I like to feel that I know what I know.
550
:And there's just a huge amount you don't know when you start your PhD and there's a huge
amount you're going to change and have to discover.
551
:And I think I just wasn't, I hadn't allowed myself to go into a vulnerable space to enjoy
that.
552
:And I've had to really
553
:surrender a little bit and just go okay this is going to be hard it's going to be messy
it's just going to and i'm enjoying it a lot more now and then yeah i'm back freelance
554
:again which is just and it's literally been a very short space of time but the energy and
creativity and it was interesting you're saying right at the beginning that idea of
555
:creativity being something that's produced and created by people rather than it being a
brand and I'm having a conversation with a couple of people at the moment about creating
556
:something that won't be me as a brand for example it's something that needs to happen it's
something that somebody mentioned to me a few years ago and I'm talking yesterday when
557
:remember you said this thing and I
558
:really want to pursue that and do want to pursue it with me?
559
:And like yeah and so I think these idea things are like coming to fruition because there's
space to do it all of a sudden I'm not feeling burnt out by some organization's agenda
560
:that I don't really believe in or whatever.
561
:So yeah I think that joy thing, I think it had to start with the running.
562
:I thought if I can't unravel what it is I've lost about the joy of running.
563
:I'll not understand it in other aspects of my life and it taught me so much.
564
:I think it'll be interesting to see where I go for the rest of the year with it.
565
:I've just entered a big competition for next year with my friend.
566
:So there's a lot of training coming up, but yeah, even smiling about it, talking about it,
because I'm really excited about the journey we're going to, for me, it's not about doing
567
:it.
568
:It's everything getting up to it.
569
:And I think that's what I'd lost in that joy journey.
570
:it's interesting because the thing that comes up for me when you talk about like joy and
losing joy is not so much working for like aiming for joy, but the things that get in the
571
:way of joy.
572
:And for me, I feel like that's stress and anxiety usually.
573
:in my case, related to other people's expectations or to like trying to do things a
certain way.
574
:And I guess it comes back to the initial season one and imposter phenomenon and kind of
like how that shows up for me.
575
:But I find that when I try to, like if I'm working with a new client and I'm trying to
like fit myself into their expectations, rather than just
576
:kind of relaxing into my own confidence and the way that I work and the things that are
important to me, like really making that effort to come back to wait, what are my
577
:priorities?
578
:What are my values?
579
:What's important to me and how I work?
580
:What's important?
581
:Like, and it's all these same things that you're talking about with kind of work that you
end up in that's like not a good fit.
582
:But those are the things that for me, it feels like a...
583
:layer on top of joy and that when I take those things out the joy can flow a lot more
easily.
584
:Yeah.
585
:it kind of takes out the heat in the joy in what you want.
586
:It's really interesting, isn't it?
587
:I think it's something that we continually discover about ourselves as well.
588
:I think the things that brought me joy when I was 20 and 30 and 40 are different to what I
find joy in now, or how I seek joy and how I can take joy.
589
:I think your example of moving and having a bit of a list of the things that you thought
you'd need to be, you know, happy and content.
590
:And yes, you've been happy.
591
:You've still enjoyed the uh process, but there was also layers on there of things that
you're like, so yes, this will also enjoy get being made at a coffee shop or uh whatever.
592
:And I think it's so interesting to me about how these things just shift all the time.
593
:you know, our sense of place belonging and where we sit, our attachments, it's all moving.
594
:So you can think, you know, yourself completely inside out.
595
:And then like the next year, no, you're back square one again.
596
:like, you're gonna have to do that work and understand where you're going again.
597
:I have to ask, there's a curtain behind you and as I'm looking at it, it feels like a
really festive, it looks like little Santas or something upside down, but it isn't, it?
598
:I can't believe it.
599
:Oh, I can see now, yeah.
600
:I think outside, I don't know if you can see the, yeah, the fields, the books.
601
:Yeah, there's antlers.
602
:Yeah, there's some kind of hunter.
603
:I don't know.
604
:ah Yeah, no, not Christmas curtains.
605
:That'd be really weird.
606
:Thank you so much for joining me today for the podcast.
607
:This season is just exploring joy.
608
:And it's been really interesting to chat to you about joy in change and move, and also
routine and what we can learn about our routines and...
609
:habits, I suppose, when we move from one space to another and how that moves on.
610
:thank you so much for having me.
611
:It's been a joyful conversation and I look forward to hearing what else you explore.
612
:If people want to get in touch with you, what is the best way to get in touch with you?
613
:What's your website name?
614
:Yeah, so I have um beautifuluseful.co, and then I'm on Instagram and pretty much
everywhere else at at angfriesen, A-N-G-E-F-R-I-E-S-E-N, and that's where you'll find me.
615
:I'll add all of this into the podcast links so people can connect with you.
616
:Thank you very much.
617
:Thank you.
