Episode 4

full
Published on:

4th Feb 2024

Dress for You, Not the Doubt: The Psychology of Fashion. With Guest Samantha Harman

Own the Digital Room

Style coach Samantha Harman joins Leila for a candid, empowering discussion on looking good and feeling confident. Samantha shares her experiences of impostor phenomenon, from using fashion as armour in her early journalism career to now helping ambitious women style their way to self-assurance. Leila provides insights from her own fascinating research on how entrepreneurs grapple with feeling like frauds. This episode offers a thoughtful perspective on using clothing as a vehicle to owning your worth and finding your inner confidence. A must-listen for anyone seeking to feel as bold as they look.

 

Find Samantha online here: https://www.thestyleeditor.co.uk/ / @styleeditoruk / Find Samantha on LinkedIn ‘Samantha (The Style Editor) Harman’

Listen to Samantha’s podcast, ‘Own the room’ (previously ‘the nothing to wear’ podcast)

Citations and references

Flugel, J. C. (1933). The psychology of clothes. The Sociological Review, 25(3), 301-304.

Adam, H., & Galinsky, A. D. (2012). Enclothed cognition. Journal of experimental social psychology, 48(4), 918-925.

Jones, M. G., Lee, T., Chesnutt, K., Carrier, S., Ennes, M., Cayton, E., ... & Huff, P. (2019). Enclothed cognition: Putting lab coats to the test. International Journal of Science Education, 41(14), 1962-1976.

https://www.bps.org.uk/research-digest/enclothed-cognition-brushes-well

Connect with Leila online at www.leilaainge.co.uk and subscribe to her newsletter for psychological insights direct to your inbox.

 

Psychologically Speaking is produced by Buckers at Decibelle Creative / @decibelle_creative  

Transcript
Samantha Harman:

You're too into fashion to be a serious journalist

Samantha Harman:

and I've always enjoyed proving people wrong.

Samantha Harman:

So from that point onwards, I was like, I'm going to show you

Samantha Harman:

that I absolutely am serious and I can do it whilst

Samantha Harman:

I'm wearing whatever I want.

Leila Ainge:

Welcome to psychologically speaking with me,

Leila Ainge:

Leila Ainge. This is a podcast

Leila Ainge:

all about human behavior, weaving

Leila Ainge:

together fascinating research, opinions and real

Leila Ainge:

life experiences. I'll give you a psychologist

Leila Ainge:

insight into how we behave in spaces we live

Leila Ainge:

and work in, and how they in turn shape

Leila Ainge:

us. This season, we're exploring

Leila Ainge:

my favorite topic, impostor phenomenon.

Leila Ainge:

So get comfy and let's dive into today's

Leila Ainge:

episode.

Leila Ainge:

In 2022, I conducted the first piece

Leila Ainge:

of research that asked the entrepreneurial

Leila Ainge:

community about their experiences of impostor

Leila Ainge:

phenomenon in online community spaces.

Leila Ainge:

The research is rich and, it brings out

Leila Ainge:

really interesting perspectives that cover

Leila Ainge:

visibility, coping with comparison and being in

Leila Ainge:

an online level playing field

Leila Ainge:

thrown in with the experiences and feelings of being

Leila Ainge:

visible. Women opened, up about the way in which they

Leila Ainge:

use clothes and accessories as a form of armor

Leila Ainge:

to show up online. From a statement pair of

Leila Ainge:

glasses to bold colors, I was intrigued when

Leila Ainge:

women discussed how they create characters out of their

Leila Ainge:

clothing to cope with impostor feelings.

Leila Ainge:

I'm overjoyed to pick apart what I heard with

Leila Ainge:

an expert in both impostor feelings and styling

Leila Ainge:

ambitious women. This week's episode features

Leila Ainge:

the magnificent Samantha Harman, the style

Leila Ainge:

editor. Samantha

Leila Ainge:

is a trained style and confidence coach and

Leila Ainge:

uses techniques such as neurolinguistic

Leila Ainge:

programming, emotion focused therapy, human

Leila Ainge:

design and hypnosis to help ambitious

Leila Ainge:

women to quit their impostor syndrome. Stop wasting

Leila Ainge:

money on clothes they never wear and feel good in their

Leila Ainge:

style and their body. Samantha

Leila Ainge:

openly shares her own experiences of feeling

Leila Ainge:

like an impostor. She became an editor at

Leila Ainge:

27, which at the time was unheard of

Leila Ainge:

for young working class woman and dressing for

Leila Ainge:

it was a minefield. While Samantha

Leila Ainge:

achieved great things on the outside, she constantly felt like

Leila Ainge:

she was going to get found out. And Samantha tells

Leila Ainge:

us this deep rooted lack of confidence meant she didn't

Leila Ainge:

stand up for herself, didn't go for the opportunities she

Leila Ainge:

deserved, and thought that the only way to be valuable was

Leila Ainge:

to work herself to burn out.

Leila Ainge:

Samantha thought that the answer to her problems was more

Leila Ainge:

clothes because you're always just one new item

Leila Ainge:

away from finally feeling enough.

Leila Ainge:

Now, I'm not afraid to admit that leopard print is

Leila Ainge:

my favourite colour, so it's no surprise. I've been an

Leila Ainge:

avid listener of Samantha's podcast where she tells us that

Leila Ainge:

clothes, are not the only answer. I can't wait to

Leila Ainge:

chew over the research findings with her. So

Leila Ainge:

a warm welcome to, psychologically speaking, to

Leila Ainge:

Samantha, the style editor.

Samantha Harman:

Thank you so much for having me. What an intro.

Samantha Harman:

Wow. I sound fantastic.

Leila Ainge:

I have to admit, I have lifted quite a lot

Leila Ainge:

of that from your wonderful website, and it obviously

Leila Ainge:

shows through that you have an editing background because your

Leila Ainge:

writing skills are amazing. And it was very easy for me to

Leila Ainge:

just say, oh, this is exactly what you do and who you are.

Leila Ainge:

So thank you. You made my life very easy

Leila Ainge:

there.

Leila Ainge:

I'd like to ask you just first of all, a little bit

Leila Ainge:

behind how you actually got into the

Leila Ainge:

styling coaching, because it was quite a departure, I

Leila Ainge:

imagine, to go from working in industry as

Leila Ainge:

an editor. Was it in magazines or newspapers?

Samantha Harman:

Both magazines and newspapers, yeah.

Samantha Harman:

For my sins.

Leila Ainge:

And what was it that actually kind of took

Leila Ainge:

you to going into where you are now, which is a

Leila Ainge:

stylist and coach for ambitious

Leila Ainge:

women?

Samantha Harman:

I have always loved clothes and,

Samantha Harman:

dressing up. And when I was a kid, I would

Samantha Harman:

do stuff like create little outfits for

Samantha Harman:

my dolls and draw outfits and all those kind of

Samantha Harman:

things. But I got the impression

Samantha Harman:

that fashion and style wasn't for someone who

Samantha Harman:

looked like me, because from a very young age, I was

Samantha Harman:

told that my body was wrong

Samantha Harman:

and that I should essentially

Samantha Harman:

spend the rest of my life trying to fix it.

Samantha Harman:

And fashion and style at, that time, as it

Samantha Harman:

has been for many decades, was almost a

Samantha Harman:

way to make women feel bad about

Samantha Harman:

themselves so they'll keep buying more stuff to fix problems they don't

Samantha Harman:

have. So I put

Samantha Harman:

those dreams, I guess, to the

Samantha Harman:

back of my mind. And because I had

Samantha Harman:

an aptitude for writing and

Samantha Harman:

for talking to people love to talk,

Samantha Harman:

I just plowed into

Samantha Harman:

being an editor and I

Samantha Harman:

worked across newspapers, tv, radio, et

Samantha Harman:

cetera, and then settled in newspaper journalism. And

Samantha Harman:

actually, one of the first things that someone said to

Samantha Harman:

me when I came into a newsroom to interview

Samantha Harman:

for a hard news job was,

Samantha Harman:

you're too into fashion to be a serious

Samantha Harman:

journalist. And I've always enjoyed

Samantha Harman:

proving people wrong. So from that point onwards, I was like, I'm

Samantha Harman:

going to show you that I absolutely am serious and

Samantha Harman:

I can do it whilst I'm wearing whatever I

Samantha Harman:

want. And as a

Samantha Harman:

woman leader, in

Samantha Harman:

journalism, I faced a lot

Samantha Harman:

of what would be classed as

Samantha Harman:

misogyny. So when my first

Samantha Harman:

editor promoted me to be

Samantha Harman:

a chief reporter on the news

Samantha Harman:

desk and then I became an editor, he

Samantha Harman:

came back from a meeting and he said to me, sam,

Samantha Harman:

unfortunately, a lot of people are going to have a

Samantha Harman:

problem with this, and it's going to be harder for you because you

Samantha Harman:

are a woman. And I know that is hard to hear, but you're going to have to

Samantha Harman:

suck it up and find ways to deal with

Samantha Harman:

it. And my clothes absolutely became a way to deal with

Samantha Harman:

that. Like, some of the findings that you had

Samantha Harman:

in your research. I did use my clothes

Samantha Harman:

as armor, and in doing that, I

Samantha Harman:

started to get more opportunities, and people

Samantha Harman:

wanted to talk to me about clothes. So women

Samantha Harman:

I met would say to me, can you help me

Samantha Harman:

find something to wear for an interview? Or

Samantha Harman:

I've got this really important meeting tomorrow, what should

Samantha Harman:

I wear? And obviously, at that time, I wasn't doing anything

Samantha Harman:

in style. I just loved dressing up and I loved

Samantha Harman:

helping them. And that was the point. I

Samantha Harman:

realized that there was something to this. And that

Samantha Harman:

style didn't necessarily have to be about making people feel

Samantha Harman:

bad, because that had always been my experience of

Samantha Harman:

it. It could actually be used

Samantha Harman:

to empower people and we can change the

Samantha Harman:

meaning of it.

Leila Ainge:

I think it's fascinating. I mean, it doesn't

Leila Ainge:

surprise me that that misogyny exists. I

Leila Ainge:

think that misogyny exists in many different

Leila Ainge:

organizations, but that kind of,

Leila Ainge:

environment where imagery

Leila Ainge:

is portrayed in print and

Leila Ainge:

with photos, it's just right there in front

Leila Ainge:

of you, isn't it? And it must have been quite

Leila Ainge:

challenging, I suppose. Do you think things

Leila Ainge:

are different now? I mean, this was a while back, but do you think

Leila Ainge:

things have changed at all?

Samantha Harman:

I think we all say that they've

Samantha Harman:

changed, but really, has it changed? I mean, the

Samantha Harman:

rise of social media and what we're looking at now and AI

Samantha Harman:

generated imagery is a huge cause

Samantha Harman:

for concern. And when I was

Samantha Harman:

working in magazines, I went to

Samantha Harman:

these big flagship titles to do internships,

Samantha Harman:

and I thought, I've made it. I

Samantha Harman:

can't believe I've got an internship here. This is the place

Samantha Harman:

that I've coveted my whole life. And

Samantha Harman:

some of the conversations that I heard in those places

Samantha Harman:

were absolutely shocking and terrible and stuff that should

Samantha Harman:

not be repeated. But I think

Samantha Harman:

now, as much as we see more

Samantha Harman:

individualism and more celebration of different

Samantha Harman:

bodies and different types of people,

Samantha Harman:

there is still that traditional,

Samantha Harman:

always wanting to go back to the same

Samantha Harman:

rigid expectation of

Samantha Harman:

what a woman should be.

Leila Ainge:

It's really interesting. As I lead out on this podcast

Leila Ainge:

series, my first episode talks around why

Leila Ainge:

I want us to start using the phrase impostor

Leila Ainge:

phenomenon rather than syndrome, because it's

Leila Ainge:

something we experience. And that experience is

Leila Ainge:

driven by the prejudice and

Leila Ainge:

inequity, and how safe

Leila Ainge:

or unsafe the environments are that we sit in. And what you've

Leila Ainge:

just described there is, I was in an environment that was

Leila Ainge:

misogynistic. It wasn't necessarily a safe place to be.

Leila Ainge:

And there I was, a 27 year old leader

Leila Ainge:

who should have been supported, and

Leila Ainge:

that person who said to you, all people won't like that. It should have

Leila Ainge:

been thinking around, well, how do I remove those barriers rather

Leila Ainge:

than putting that on you? I mean, that's a big thing,

Leila Ainge:

right? and so I think it's really

Leila Ainge:

interesting. I mean, that's a physical space, and yet

Leila Ainge:

we're both working, aren't we, with, entrepreneurs

Leila Ainge:

in online spaces now. And like you said,

Leila Ainge:

that, ah, view of how social media and AI

Leila Ainge:

shapes the spaces that we're in has had a

Leila Ainge:

phenomenal impact on women's self

Leila Ainge:

confidence and, self esteem.

Leila Ainge:

And I just wondered, what kind of things are

Leila Ainge:

clients talking to you about around those

Leila Ainge:

online spaces?

Samantha Harman:

For example, very much in

Samantha Harman:

terms of feeling like an

Samantha Harman:

impostor. So many of the women

Samantha Harman:

who I work with, who run their own businesses,

Samantha Harman:

describe feeling like they're on work

Samantha Harman:

experience, or like at any minute

Samantha Harman:

someone's going to come along and say, no, you can't do this. You don't

Samantha Harman:

know what you're doing. Even though these are women with years

Samantha Harman:

of experience and qualifications,

Samantha Harman:

incredible women. I was working with one recently, and

Samantha Harman:

she was reeling off all the things that she'd done and

Samantha Harman:

all the things that she hoped to do. And, I was

Samantha Harman:

speechless because I just couldn't

Samantha Harman:

believe how accomplished this woman is.

Samantha Harman:

I almost want to shake people and be like, you are

Samantha Harman:

brilliant.

Samantha Harman:

So there's that. But there's also this

Samantha Harman:

idea of rules. So I can't wear

Samantha Harman:

that because I'm a size x, and

Samantha Harman:

people my size can't wear stripes, or I can't wear

Samantha Harman:

those two colors together, because some

Samantha Harman:

way back in the early naughties, there was a

Samantha Harman:

tv show that told me that I couldn't. So we

Samantha Harman:

have all these rules in our head that are stopping us from

Samantha Harman:

truly expressing ourselves in a way that we want

Samantha Harman:

to.

Leila Ainge:

It's really interesting. I was actually thinking this morning. So, I mean,

Leila Ainge:

this gives away my age, but, one of the biggest

Leila Ainge:

tv programs on when I graduated,

Leila Ainge:

or even just before, was Ali

Leila Ainge:

McBeal. And, in Ali McBeal, obviously,

Leila Ainge:

Kalista Flockart's, main character, she's a

Leila Ainge:

protagonist, is dressed head to toe in

Leila Ainge:

Calvin Klein suits. Now, when I

Leila Ainge:

graduated, I was not under a size 16,

Leila Ainge:

so I could not just walk into a shop and, or

Leila Ainge:

I couldn't order a Kelvin Klein suit. But I was

Leila Ainge:

working, as a management consultant and I was a

Leila Ainge:

graduate trainee. So there was a real expectation as

Leila Ainge:

I was sitting in boardrooms with people from prowess

Leila Ainge:

Waterhouse, Coopers and cat Gemini. And there was me,

Leila Ainge:

and I'm from an old kind of mining and pit town

Leila Ainge:

in swaddling coat. so

Leila Ainge:

my experience of growing up, I didn't see people in

Leila Ainge:

suits. My mum didn't wear a suit. She worked,

Leila Ainge:

but she didn't wear a suit. My dad was in service, he worked for the

Leila Ainge:

police force. And I had this

Leila Ainge:

expectation in my head from tv around how I

Leila Ainge:

should look. And for many, many years,

Leila Ainge:

I tried to emulate that style in wearing

Leila Ainge:

suits. As a 40, almost

Leila Ainge:

five year old, I've, become really comfortable in my own skin, but it's

Leila Ainge:

taken so long and I look back now, and one of

Leila Ainge:

the most pleasurable things about listening to your

Leila Ainge:

podcast is I just kind of feel that

Leila Ainge:

it summarizes a massive journey that I've been

Leila Ainge:

on in accepting who I am and just

Leila Ainge:

being comfortable in wearing what I want to wear. And

Leila Ainge:

that's one of the really nice things that you've brought

Leila Ainge:

to the online space for me in your podcast

Leila Ainge:

and that investigative journalism of yours.

Leila Ainge:

I think you've just unlayered or you've

Leila Ainge:

peeled back every single layer of all these

Leila Ainge:

excuses and reasons and thoughts

Leila Ainge:

that we've all had around how we should show

Leila Ainge:

up and how we should feel.

Leila Ainge:

I wanted to kind of share a few of the comments

Leila Ainge:

that came through on the research. Now, this kind of like a

Leila Ainge:

bit like a good editor. I had to cut a lot from my research

Leila Ainge:

paper, which is why we've got a podcast, so that I can

Leila Ainge:

just explore it a little bit more widely. but these

Leila Ainge:

were some of the phrases that my

Leila Ainge:

participants talked about. Now,

Leila Ainge:

again, accomplished women. You're talking there about a

Leila Ainge:

woman you spoke to who'd got so many things going

Leila Ainge:

on. I spoke to a couple of women who

Leila Ainge:

were really at the top of the game and 1520

Leila Ainge:

years worth of experience. So these are not entrepreneurs who were

Leila Ainge:

startup. These are people who've been doing this

Leila Ainge:

successfully for a long time. And the things that

Leila Ainge:

they were saying to me is, I'm very colorful

Leila Ainge:

in real life. I'm bigger than the

Leila Ainge:

room, and I match that with my

Leila Ainge:

clothing. I should be more suited and

Leila Ainge:

booted, though. So this is somebody talking about,

Leila Ainge:

here's an expression of who I am. Here's my big

Leila Ainge:

personality. And I characterize myself as

Leila Ainge:

a big and bold person, but I feel I should be

Leila Ainge:

suited and booted. So I'm

Leila Ainge:

just interested in your hot take on that. I mean,

Leila Ainge:

where's this coming from?

Samantha Harman:

So in the

Samantha Harman:

1970s, there was a book written

Samantha Harman:

called Dress for success women at work

Samantha Harman:

by someone called John T. Milloy. And in that

Samantha Harman:

book, Malloy describes what

Samantha Harman:

women should wear, should be wearing to work. And that

Samantha Harman:

was because at the time, women being in work was

Samantha Harman:

relatively new. And essentially,

Samantha Harman:

what that book says is women should

Samantha Harman:

try and emulate men in terms of

Samantha Harman:

their shoulders, so hence the rise of the shoulder

Samantha Harman:

pad, because then you can stand shoulder to

Samantha Harman:

shoulder with men. But you should

Samantha Harman:

also remember that your main job is to be

Samantha Harman:

attractive to men. So accentuate your waist

Samantha Harman:

and make sure that you are obviously still

Samantha Harman:

feminine. So we still have those

Samantha Harman:

rules from over 50 years ago

Samantha Harman:

in our heads. And what I found,

Samantha Harman:

particularly since the pandemic, is that

Samantha Harman:

workwear dressing is very

Samantha Harman:

confusing. People aren't sure what

Samantha Harman:

smart casual means or business casual means,

Samantha Harman:

and no one is having those kind of

Samantha Harman:

conversations in the workplace. And it's

Samantha Harman:

time for us to create some

Samantha Harman:

new boundaries around what we

Samantha Harman:

can and can't wear to work.

Samantha Harman:

However, the paradox is that there

Samantha Harman:

are studies that do show that

Samantha Harman:

in leadership, people do kind

Samantha Harman:

of look up more to those who are wearing

Samantha Harman:

formal attire.

Samantha Harman:

So it's a

Samantha Harman:

paradox between expressing yourself

Samantha Harman:

and also feeling

Samantha Harman:

that you are formal enough to lead the

Samantha Harman:

conversation. There's a lot of talk online at the moment

Samantha Harman:

around casual wear, and we see it a lot in the shops.

Samantha Harman:

If you walk into the high street right now, most

Samantha Harman:

of the stuff in there is tracksuits, hoodies,

Samantha Harman:

loungewear, et cetera. Great, fine.

Samantha Harman:

But the people online peddling this idea

Samantha Harman:

that you can just wear pajamas and create

Samantha Harman:

a successful business have, a level of privilege that the rest

Samantha Harman:

of us don't know. Mark Zuckerberg can go

Samantha Harman:

to a meeting wearing a hoodie, and that's fine

Samantha Harman:

because he's a billionaire. That doesn't

Samantha Harman:

apply to the rest of us. And

Samantha Harman:

so, as unfortunate as it is,

Samantha Harman:

we do also need to use our clothes

Samantha Harman:

in a way that helps us get into the rooms that

Samantha Harman:

we want to be in.

Leila Ainge:

That is so insightful, and

Leila Ainge:

I can totally relate to that. I mean, I do a role

Leila Ainge:

where I'm often on client sites, and the last twelve

Leila Ainge:

months for me have been fantastic because I've been on client

Leila Ainge:

site a, couple of days a week, and I've been able to dip into

Leila Ainge:

my wardrobe and actually wear my work clothes

Leila Ainge:

and something you said. it was either, ah,

Leila Ainge:

an email or a podcast that you did recently

Leila Ainge:

was talking about getting yourself ready in the

Leila Ainge:

morning for work. And it really resonated

Leila Ainge:

with me because I definitely found during

Leila Ainge:

lockdown, if I was sat and not really dressed and

Leila Ainge:

I'd got my kid with me at home, I was homeschooling and

Leila Ainge:

studying and working. there was something about

Leila Ainge:

that incongruence of not feeling that I was

Leila Ainge:

in the role that I was supposed to be doing at the time,

Leila Ainge:

if I was just wearing a jumper or pair of

Leila Ainge:

shorts. and so for today, for example,

Leila Ainge:

I've done my hair, I've put a bit of makeup on, I've put a nice

Leila Ainge:

jumper on that I like the color of. And that, for me,

Leila Ainge:

was getting myself ready to be professional and to sit and have a

Leila Ainge:

good old chat with you. and there has to be

Leila Ainge:

that middle ground, doesn't there?

Samantha Harman:

Does, yeah, because unfortunately, we don't all have the

Samantha Harman:

privilege of being a Mark

Samantha Harman:

Zuckerberg. But

Samantha Harman:

to your point about getting dressed in the morning.

Samantha Harman:

Yeah. There's something called in clothes cognition. That's what

Samantha Harman:

the psychologists call

Samantha Harman:

it, whereby we act to the role

Samantha Harman:

of our clothes. So they did a study using

Samantha Harman:

lab coats. They've done this study a few times where

Samantha Harman:

participants are given the same lab coat and they're told,

Samantha Harman:

this is a doctor's lab coat or this is a

Samantha Harman:

painter's smock. And they found that those who were wearing what they

Samantha Harman:

thought was the doctor's lab coat performed much

Samantha Harman:

better in tests than those who thought they were wearing a

Samantha Harman:

painter's smock. So

Samantha Harman:

subconsciously, we have

Samantha Harman:

ideas attached to items of clothing.

Samantha Harman:

And so if we wear something that we have an idea

Samantha Harman:

attached to it, that is, this is what someone

Samantha Harman:

productive wears, we will

Samantha Harman:

behave in a more productive way.

Samantha Harman:

We've been putting our pajamas on since before we

Samantha Harman:

can remember. our parents would take us out of, our going out clothes

Samantha Harman:

and put us in our pajamas to go to bed. So the idea that we have

Samantha Harman:

in our head is pajamas equal rest. And

Samantha Harman:

so when we wear our pajamas all day to

Samantha Harman:

work, yeah, sure, it feels like a novelty, but

Samantha Harman:

it's confusing our brain, because our brain is

Samantha Harman:

like, okay, am I resting now? Am I

Samantha Harman:

meant to be working? What am I supposed to do?

Leila Ainge:

Imagine there's something also quite comforting and feels

Leila Ainge:

quite safe about wearing your pejs if you're working.

Leila Ainge:

And especially during that lockdown period. And this is where I did

Leila Ainge:

my research, was just post lockdown.

Leila Ainge:

We talked about zoom fatigue and being tired.

Leila Ainge:

So, I wonder what impact has being a little

Leila Ainge:

bit more casual had on our whole psyche

Leila Ainge:

and where we're going.

Leila Ainge:

And it's interesting you mentioned that study as well,

Leila Ainge:

and the enclosed cognition, because the studies

Leila Ainge:

that we have, and again, it feels as

Leila Ainge:

if it really talks to

Leila Ainge:

the sexism and inequity that exist in

Leila Ainge:

psychology as well, because a lot of research

Leila Ainge:

will want to look at, well, how do men and women fare when they

Leila Ainge:

wear different things? And it exposes some of

Leila Ainge:

those prejudices and, the inequity that we

Leila Ainge:

see and the one that I'm always fascinated

Leila Ainge:

by is one that was a swimwear,

Leila Ainge:

study. So they had, a group of participants,

Leila Ainge:

and I think they were students as well. So always a bit of

Leila Ainge:

caution, because it's not representative of a bigger age

Leila Ainge:

group. but they had them try on swimwear

Leila Ainge:

or a jumper in a changing room with a

Leila Ainge:

mirror, so that person was unable to do their own

Leila Ainge:

self evaluation. And then afterwards they had them

Leila Ainge:

sit a maths test. and, the women were

Leila Ainge:

impacted by the maths test, that if they'd worn the

Leila Ainge:

swimwear, they did worse in the

Leila Ainge:

maths test than the men. The men were more consistent across

Leila Ainge:

the board. And again, I think that

Leila Ainge:

also speaks to the inequity and

Leila Ainge:

the prejudice. And I suppose the fact that there's

Leila Ainge:

privilege, isn't there, for some people rather than others.

Samantha Harman:

Yeah, definitely. And I think

Samantha Harman:

women's bodies are judged in a different way

Samantha Harman:

to men. I mean, there's

Samantha Harman:

the body shape as fruit and kitchen

Samantha Harman:

utensils thing that style does. You're

Samantha Harman:

an apple, you're a violin, you're a brick. It's

Samantha Harman:

just men don't get

Samantha Harman:

the same treatment as women in that way. They're not

Samantha Harman:

told constantly to wear stuff that flatters them. and by

Samantha Harman:

flattery, what we mean is making your

Samantha Harman:

shape look more like an hourglass, which is

Samantha Harman:

what men find apparently more

Samantha Harman:

attractive. That's what it's about. So

Samantha Harman:

it's really fascinating

Samantha Harman:

to look at that study and,

Samantha Harman:

to think about.

Leila Ainge:

Where those rules and norms have

Leila Ainge:

come from.

Samantha Harman:

Where they've come from.

Leila Ainge:

Yeah, it's interesting. There's another psychologist,

Leila Ainge:

called Amy Cuddy. Amy's had a

Leila Ainge:

horrific time in the psychological community

Leila Ainge:

because a lot of her scientific research has been

Leila Ainge:

scrutinized. And, in psychology, we have

Leila Ainge:

this huge kind of replication crisis

Leila Ainge:

happening. And what that means is a lot of studies that were done

Leila Ainge:

and published and, published,

Leila Ainge:

because probably the people who've published it have been given

Leila Ainge:

the platform to publish it. Have, been found

Leila Ainge:

to not be producing the results when they've been

Leila Ainge:

replicated. So a lot of this been around,

Leila Ainge:

priming studies and priming effects and marketing,

Leila Ainge:

et cetera. But Amy Cuddy's research

Leila Ainge:

was really scrutinised. And her key piece

Leila Ainge:

is that idea that if you stand

Leila Ainge:

tall, you can have this power pose. And that

Leila Ainge:

power pose will make us more confident. So the jury

Leila Ainge:

is really out on the efficacy of what she's

Leila Ainge:

proposing there. But at the heart

Leila Ainge:

of this, really, I think some of the intention behind that

Leila Ainge:

research was confidence is more

Leila Ainge:

than what we wear and who we are. It's

Leila Ainge:

so interlinked with lots of other things, and

Leila Ainge:

that includes cognition. The clothes we wear.

Leila Ainge:

Clothes are doing a number of jobs for us. They're

Leila Ainge:

literally protecting us from rain and

Leila Ainge:

heat. they're also doing things like

Leila Ainge:

they're kind of an extension of our self expression.

Leila Ainge:

So it's a way for us to communicate with other

Leila Ainge:

people. And my psychology research really

Leila Ainge:

kind of sat on that social identity theory, which is

Leila Ainge:

saying everything we do is around where we

Leila Ainge:

sit in groups. So are you part of the group that I'm

Leila Ainge:

in? How do I know that you're like me? And the fact that

Leila Ainge:

we are more drawn to people who are like us. So if I wear bold

Leila Ainge:

colors and you wear bold colors, I go, well, that person's like me. I can get

Leila Ainge:

on with them. but I think it's interesting that when we

Leila Ainge:

have got research out there, and especially when

Leila Ainge:

women put research out there, how scrutinised that

Leila Ainge:

is. Yet this guy who wrote this book on how

Leila Ainge:

we should dress, I mean, did he come under the same amount of

Leila Ainge:

pressure as Amy Cuddy? Probably not.

Samantha Harman:

Yeah. And it's over 50 years later, and, we're

Samantha Harman:

still actually a lot of

Samantha Harman:

workwear. Workwear codes that

Samantha Harman:

we see are based on his book from over

Samantha Harman:

50 years ago. You're right. It

Samantha Harman:

doesn't kind of have the same level of scrutiny.

Samantha Harman:

And even conversations that I have around

Samantha Harman:

clothes come under so much scrutiny,

Samantha Harman:

too. I mean, I've been posting

Samantha Harman:

every day on LinkedIn about this stuff and the psychology

Samantha Harman:

behind why wear what we wear. And at,

Samantha Harman:

first, I had so much backlash

Samantha Harman:

to it. And it's just very interesting

Samantha Harman:

how, I think there is something

Samantha Harman:

to do with the fact we see it as frivolous and something

Samantha Harman:

silly and actually superficial is a word that

Samantha Harman:

someone used when every day we all

Samantha Harman:

get dressed. And actually, on average, we spend 11

Samantha Harman:

minutes a day thinking about what we

Samantha Harman:

supposed to wear, which

Samantha Harman:

is, about two days a year of

Samantha Harman:

our lives. So to

Samantha Harman:

call it kind of superficial is to

Samantha Harman:

miss the point. And

Samantha Harman:

women are socialized in a way that

Samantha Harman:

makes them have to think about this stuff way more than it

Samantha Harman:

does men.

Leila Ainge:

It is strange. I mean, I was looking

Leila Ainge:

at some of the very early kind of

Leila Ainge:

texts on the, psychology of

Leila Ainge:

clothing. And, it wasn't necessarily the book that

Leila Ainge:

was written. Which is called psychology of clothes. but a

Leila Ainge:

review of it. And this is from 1930. So there's a

Leila Ainge:

professor called professor flugal. And I've not read his work

Leila Ainge:

extensively. So, I'm

Leila Ainge:

not going to go into detail. But basically he writes a book.

Leila Ainge:

He's a psychoanalyst. I think you'd actually probably really enjoy his

Leila Ainge:

work. From that psychoanalytical perspective, Samantha.

Leila Ainge:

But he did, a piece which was talking

Leila Ainge:

about people's types of clothing and wearing, et

Leila Ainge:

cetera. And he was talking about differences in sexes between

Leila Ainge:

male and female. And this is the 1930s,

Leila Ainge:

remember? So he's talking about the fact that men

Leila Ainge:

have, by and large, discarded, the need

Leila Ainge:

to be narcissistic and showy with their

Leila Ainge:

clothes. and somebody is reviewing his

Leila Ainge:

book. And they're saying, that their summary is. We are

Leila Ainge:

ashamed of the working of our minds. As we are the

Leila Ainge:

contours of our bodies. And I just thought,

Leila Ainge:

wow. I mean, that statement is as

Leila Ainge:

relevant today as it was back in the

Leila Ainge:

1930s. But when you break that

Leila Ainge:

down, women are ashamed of the workings of their minds.

Leila Ainge:

As much as the contours of their bodies. Would

Leila Ainge:

really summarize those statements that

Leila Ainge:

come out around impostor phenomenon for me, and

Leila Ainge:

especially in the entrepreneurial community. Because

Leila Ainge:

women are a little bit embarrassed to admit that,

Leila Ainge:

they have to think about clothing so much. That they have to

Leila Ainge:

use it as armor. and they're just as

Leila Ainge:

ashamed of that as they are those

Leila Ainge:

negative feelings. And that whirlwind.

Leila Ainge:

That impostor kind of spins up for people.

Leila Ainge:

I know that you work very,

Leila Ainge:

very closely with people who have those impostor

Leila Ainge:

experiences. And, in terms of that, I'm

Leila Ainge:

ashamed of the working of my mind. As much as the contours

Leila Ainge:

of my body. Is that something that comes through with the impostor

Leila Ainge:

work that you do with women?

Samantha Harman:

Very much so often

Samantha Harman:

I will have clients who will never talk about working with

Samantha Harman:

me. Actually, entrepreneurs are more likely to talk about

Samantha Harman:

working with me. Than those who work in corporate environments.

Samantha Harman:

Because even though in corporate

Samantha Harman:

environments, women are very much judged on what they wear.

Samantha Harman:

It's a conversation that is taboo.

Samantha Harman:

M which, when it's something that can help

Samantha Harman:

people do better at their job, I find

Samantha Harman:

fascinating. But I

Samantha Harman:

think even it's a barrier to getting help, because our

Samantha Harman:

wardrobes become a physical manifestation of

Samantha Harman:

what's in our mind. We think that our wardrobes

Samantha Harman:

are just a collection of clothes, actually. They are

Samantha Harman:

ideas about who we want to be, ideas of

Samantha Harman:

what we aren't, things that we want to achieve, things that we

Samantha Harman:

haven't achieved. Memories, shame, guilt, all of that

Samantha Harman:

stuff wrapped up in a

Samantha Harman:

wooden box in our bedroom.

Samantha Harman:

And sometimes the shame and guilt can

Samantha Harman:

be a barrier to people even

Samantha Harman:

reaching out for help. And what they will do instead

Samantha Harman:

is think, well, I'll actually just go and spend

Samantha Harman:

500 pounds on new clothes because that will

Samantha Harman:

make it better. But because they aren't

Samantha Harman:

addressing the psychological reasons behind

Samantha Harman:

why their wardrobe has become what it becomes.

Samantha Harman:

In six months time, they're going to be standing in front

Samantha Harman:

of this overstuffed wardrobe again, thinking, I've

Samantha Harman:

got nothing to wear.

Leila Ainge:

And I think that really comes through in the

Leila Ainge:

research, especially in that entrepreneurial community,

Leila Ainge:

because what I was able to see through

Leila Ainge:

the deep interviews that I did was really

Leila Ainge:

how the emotions that people experience and

Leila Ainge:

how they process those, really express

Leila Ainge:

then through that wardrobe choice, or express through

Leila Ainge:

how people think they're perceived. So that

Leila Ainge:

identity, I had people who, through ways

Leila Ainge:

of coping, and as a psychologist, coping is a

Leila Ainge:

good thing, right. It can be really helpful.

Leila Ainge:

but it's helpful when we use it in short term and

Leila Ainge:

small ways, and it can be less helpful when it becomes

Leila Ainge:

maladaptive. And almost like on a sliding

Leila Ainge:

scale, I could probably put my participants

Leila Ainge:

into different groups where there are those that are using

Leila Ainge:

clothes in quite a positive and, almost a

Leila Ainge:

rebellious way to say, well, who does she think

Leila Ainge:

she is? Well, I'm this, and here's who I am. And I'm not afraid

Leila Ainge:

to wear these colors and be this person.

Leila Ainge:

But at the other end of the scale is this person going, I will

Leila Ainge:

be bold and I will be that, because I'm really frightened that people will

Leila Ainge:

discover I'm a fraud or I'm not this person.

Leila Ainge:

And I'm really interested, actually, because what

Leila Ainge:

we see in those online spaces and in social

Leila Ainge:

media could be that two different people.

Leila Ainge:

So when you see an image of somebody who looks bold and

Leila Ainge:

confident, are we seeing

Leila Ainge:

or who sits behind that? that's the bit of the

Leila Ainge:

psychologist that I'm interested in. And what you're saying,

Leila Ainge:

there is evidence that women don't want to

Leila Ainge:

talk about which one they are.

Leila Ainge:

There's a shame, but perhaps there's a stigma to if

Leila Ainge:

I admit that I'm not confident, then that

Leila Ainge:

means I can't be an entrepreneur. And that

Leila Ainge:

theme was so prevalent through the research

Leila Ainge:

that women felt that entrepreneurialism came

Leila Ainge:

with being confident. and

Leila Ainge:

yet there were people lining up to talk to me about the fact

Leila Ainge:

that they didn't feel confident, and yet they were hugely

Leila Ainge:

successful. So that's a paradox as

Leila Ainge:

well. you don't have to be

Leila Ainge:

confident to be a successful entrepreneur, but it probably

Leila Ainge:

helps.

Samantha Harman:

That's so interesting.

Samantha Harman:

That's fascinating. Yeah. Ah,

Samantha Harman:

I get that. And I

Samantha Harman:

often have people say to me, oh,

Samantha Harman:

you're just so confident. I couldn't do

Samantha Harman:

that. You just got it. You're just confident.

Samantha Harman:

Not realizing that there's a whole story

Samantha Harman:

behind, that. And actually, with

Samantha Harman:

the online space for entrepreneurs, I think there's a bit

Samantha Harman:

of a disconnect and a lack of self

Samantha Harman:

integrity. When we show up online as one thing and

Samantha Harman:

then behind the screen we know we're being something

Samantha Harman:

else. And I will often say to people when I meet

Samantha Harman:

them at events, why did you wear what you've wore today?

Samantha Harman:

And they'll say, oh, because I knew you were going to be here. I went to

Samantha Harman:

an event recently and it was a room full of women

Samantha Harman:

wearing lovely outfits. And all

Samantha Harman:

of them said that they'd put special effort in because they knew

Samantha Harman:

that I was going to be there. But what I'm really

Samantha Harman:

interested in is not what they're wearing in front of everyone else,

Samantha Harman:

it's what they're wearing when they're at home, on their own, when

Samantha Harman:

no one else sees them, because that's actually

Samantha Harman:

what they're telling themselves that they are. So if

Samantha Harman:

they're portraying online, I'm this confident,

Samantha Harman:

bold, colorful person, and then behind the

Samantha Harman:

scenes, they're not dressing that way for

Samantha Harman:

themselves. They have a lack of self

Samantha Harman:

integrity. And that then plays into why they feel like an

Samantha Harman:

impostor. because

Samantha Harman:

that is what they know to be the truth.

Leila Ainge:

A couple of comments on that. I've got a couple of questions for you.

Leila Ainge:

I mean, one, we're just pointing out here that

Leila Ainge:

incongruence again, which is if you are

Leila Ainge:

one thing in one space and another thing in another space, then it's going

Leila Ainge:

to lead to a feeling of disconnection and not

Leila Ainge:

quite that you feel who you are. But my question to you

Leila Ainge:

is, how does that make you feel as a coach?

Leila Ainge:

I mean, your job is you want to help lift people up,

Leila Ainge:

but knowing that people are dressing up to

Leila Ainge:

serve you, and how does that

Leila Ainge:

land?

Samantha Harman:

It makes me feel like there's a lot more work to do in terms

Samantha Harman:

of what we think of when we think of a

Samantha Harman:

stylist. And, I've had the comment quite a few times

Samantha Harman:

before of, you don't look like a stylist

Samantha Harman:

in a good way, because people's perception is that

Samantha Harman:

a stylist is someone who is stick

Samantha Harman:

thin, very judgmental, tells them what they

Samantha Harman:

can and can't wear, throws out everything in their

Samantha Harman:

wardrobe, says, no, this is disgusting. You don't know what you're

Samantha Harman:

doing. And I've had those experiences

Samantha Harman:

myself with stylists, and so what

Samantha Harman:

I'm doing is something completely

Samantha Harman:

different. So I do understand where that stereotype

Samantha Harman:

comes from and why people would perhaps feel the

Samantha Harman:

need to dress up and portray something else.

Samantha Harman:

But I think that's why I share so much

Samantha Harman:

of my actual journey, so

Samantha Harman:

they see that none of that matters

Samantha Harman:

to me, and I

Samantha Harman:

actually understand them because that was the

Samantha Harman:

situation that I have also been

Samantha Harman:

in.

Leila Ainge:

What kind of, advice do you

Leila Ainge:

give to people in that initial kind of, I

Leila Ainge:

suppose, context of somebody reaching out for the first

Leila Ainge:

time to say, I need help with my wardrobe,

Leila Ainge:

and I imagine at the back of their

Leila Ainge:

head is kind of those thoughts that probably I would have as

Leila Ainge:

well, which is maybe I need to learn the rules on how to dress. Maybe

Leila Ainge:

I just need to know some tricks. and when I've got that

Leila Ainge:

nailed, I'll be okay. how are

Leila Ainge:

you talking people through that initial

Leila Ainge:

conversation?

Samantha Harman:

I think if those rules

Samantha Harman:

worked, because they are free, available to

Samantha Harman:

anyone on the Internet, there would be no need

Samantha Harman:

for anyone to reach out to me

Samantha Harman:

because they would already have implemented those

Samantha Harman:

rules. But clearly something

Samantha Harman:

isn't working there.

Samantha Harman:

So what I'll do is have a conversation with them about

Samantha Harman:

why they feel the way they

Samantha Harman:

feel. And often I'll ask them questions about their

Samantha Harman:

wardrobes that they haven't ever asked before or

Samantha Harman:

been asked before.

Samantha Harman:

What are you wearing today? Why? On a scale

Samantha Harman:

of one to ten, with one being the lowest of the

Samantha Harman:

low and ten being, I feel

Samantha Harman:

like Beyonce, where are you every

Samantha Harman:

day? And often people will

Samantha Harman:

not pretend, but they will almost

Samantha Harman:

fool themselves, I guess, to thinking

Samantha Harman:

that they feel better than they do or that they don't

Samantha Harman:

have as much stuff as they do, or that they're wearing more

Samantha Harman:

of their stuff than they are. So

Samantha Harman:

I ask them questions that get

Samantha Harman:

them to think, and I'm not leading them in any way. I'm

Samantha Harman:

just asking them. And sometimes

Samantha Harman:

if they reach out to me, we will just have a

Samantha Harman:

conversation. And I know that that's helpful enough for them and

Samantha Harman:

they'll go away, they'll apply some of the stuff.

Samantha Harman:

They may come back in a month or two months or

Samantha Harman:

a year, but then other times I

Samantha Harman:

will see that there is stuff that I can help them do, and then I'll

Samantha Harman:

say, why don't we work together on this?

Leila Ainge:

And I love the fact, I mean, it really comes through in your podcast.

Leila Ainge:

And your newsletters are amazing. I like

Leila Ainge:

it when your emails drop because they're always interesting

Leila Ainge:

and there's always a little nugget of something in there. but

Leila Ainge:

I really like the way that you're trying

Leila Ainge:

to get to what's happening with somebody in their

Leila Ainge:

head, so you're not focused on their contours,

Leila Ainge:

you're focused on what's going on in that head and how can

Leila Ainge:

we unravel it. And I suppose that's where the

Leila Ainge:

journalist comes out. And that kind of

Leila Ainge:

razor Sharp mix

Leila Ainge:

of journalist,

Leila Ainge:

psychologist and, also a stylist

Leila Ainge:

all coming together just makes it a dream

Leila Ainge:

kind of way to tackle some of

Leila Ainge:

those impostor feelings, I imagine.

Samantha Harman:

I hope so. I am a dream. You're

Samantha Harman:

right. I hope so.

Samantha Harman:

Because, nothing kind

Samantha Harman:

of breaks my heart more than someone

Samantha Harman:

enlisting the help of a stylist. The stylist telling

Samantha Harman:

them, you're an apple shape, only wear these clothes,

Samantha Harman:

do this, do that. Here's a list of things that you need to have in your

Samantha Harman:

wardrobe, and then leaving and then not

Samantha Harman:

understanding all of the

Samantha Harman:

psychology behind that. I can give you a

Samantha Harman:

list of clothes that you should be wearing,

Samantha Harman:

but if you have unhealed trauma or you have

Samantha Harman:

things inside you that are going to stop you from wearing those clothes,

Samantha Harman:

I haven't helped you. I've just made the situation worse.

Samantha Harman:

m and that upsets me.

Leila Ainge:

Question I've got for you, is

Leila Ainge:

there's a whole narrative around whether we should or

Leila Ainge:

should not comment on people's appearance. And I think this

Leila Ainge:

is, it comes down to commenting on women's

Leila Ainge:

appearance. And, I've been really

Leila Ainge:

fortunate, I suppose, for the last year or so, to

Leila Ainge:

be working with a group of people where

Leila Ainge:

we're quite excited by seeing what each other's wearing.

Leila Ainge:

And it's that kind of environment, and it feels quite supportive.

Leila Ainge:

And, it's not the only thing that we notice about each other, but

Leila Ainge:

certainly I've got a shocking pair of pink shoes that

Leila Ainge:

everyone comments on, and I love wearing them, and I love it when

Leila Ainge:

people comment on them. And that says something about me as

Leila Ainge:

well. But do

Leila Ainge:

you have an opinion on this narrative of we shouldn't comment

Leila Ainge:

on how people look.

Samantha Harman:

It's interesting because people have

Samantha Harman:

always been dressing as performance.

Samantha Harman:

There are, studies

Samantha Harman:

and research that shows that as far back

Samantha Harman:

as 2600 bc,

Samantha Harman:

people were dying their clothes. And

Samantha Harman:

archaeologists found shell beads

Samantha Harman:

from 80,000 years

Samantha Harman:

ago.

Leila Ainge:

Wow.

Samantha Harman:

that people were, you know, they were using it to

Samantha Harman:

dress. So we use it to assimilate,

Samantha Harman:

like you said, and we use it

Samantha Harman:

as performance. And there's a reason

Samantha Harman:

why our favorite shows on Netflix have

Samantha Harman:

costume designers, because it's

Samantha Harman:

making us more.

Samantha Harman:

Giving us more belief in that person, in that role. An

Samantha Harman:

actor can be a great actor, but if they turn up to

Samantha Harman:

play Henry Vi and they're wearing their old t shirt and

Samantha Harman:

jeans, we, as the audience, have to do more

Samantha Harman:

work.

Samantha Harman:

So, yeah, I think that

Samantha Harman:

it's, again, kind of a paradox, because

Samantha Harman:

is there a yes or no? And sometimes I think that there

Samantha Harman:

is gray error with things. And it's become very

Samantha Harman:

popular to be polarized on

Samantha Harman:

one side or the other of various different debates

Samantha Harman:

and ideas,

Samantha Harman:

but I don't have one. I know that I

Samantha Harman:

sometimes dress in a way

Samantha Harman:

that allows people to talk to me. And I've had

Samantha Harman:

clients through what I'm wearing. I have people

Samantha Harman:

that will come up to me and say,

Samantha Harman:

I haven't ever spoken to you before, but I saw you at this

Samantha Harman:

event a year ago, and you were wearing this thing, and I

Samantha Harman:

remember it. So we can use

Samantha Harman:

our clothes as a way to be remembered. And in an

Samantha Harman:

online space,

Samantha Harman:

ah, when attention is so hard to get,

Samantha Harman:

that is a way of stopping people

Samantha Harman:

scrolling and looking at you and assessing

Samantha Harman:

if you are someone that they assimilate

Samantha Harman:

to.

Leila Ainge:

Yeah. And I have a thought on this. Ah, know, for

Leila Ainge:

me, there feels like there have to be a set of circumstances

Leila Ainge:

that are in place to enable us to be able to

Leila Ainge:

comment on how somebody looks. And, I think if you're

Leila Ainge:

in a space that is psychologically safe,

Leila Ainge:

and I spoke to, Christina and Laura in a previous episode

Leila Ainge:

about this. if you're in a space where

Leila Ainge:

your abilities and skills are recognized and

Leila Ainge:

acknowledged in their own right,

Leila Ainge:

then I think we create space to

Leila Ainge:

enjoy how we can

Leila Ainge:

creatively use appearance and look and

Leila Ainge:

colors and different fabrics, et

Leila Ainge:

cetera. And there's a real richness in our world, isn't there, in our

Leila Ainge:

visual world, on how we use all of these

Leila Ainge:

things. but it feels to me like you have to do

Leila Ainge:

the work. You got to do the work as an organization or

Leila Ainge:

in an industry to be able to have that affordance to be able

Leila Ainge:

to say, oh, wow, that person always looks amazing.

Leila Ainge:

It's like, they look amazing, but also they are top of

Leila Ainge:

the game, or they do this or they have these amazing

Leila Ainge:

skills. So I feel like there's a lot of work to be done

Leila Ainge:

there. And similarly, as a psychologist, I

Leila Ainge:

suppose I'm less interested in the extremes, but

Leila Ainge:

that, kind of gray area in between. And why do we think

Leila Ainge:

that? And why is it popular now to

Leila Ainge:

not want to tell people that, wow, really

Leila Ainge:

liked what you were wearing, and where did you get that from? It was

Leila Ainge:

really exciting. It's always been such a

Leila Ainge:

natural part of our conversation.

Samantha Harman:

Yeah. It's a way of creating

Samantha Harman:

conversation with people through

Samantha Harman:

what we wear. And, studies actually

Samantha Harman:

show that when leaders

Samantha Harman:

wear something that is a little bit different, so maybe a

Samantha Harman:

colorful sock or a colorful tie or an

Samantha Harman:

accessory, they are perceived as being

Samantha Harman:

more, competent

Samantha Harman:

than other people at their same level.

Leila Ainge:

I wonder if some of that is around. It's

Leila Ainge:

giving a visual cue for that person to stand out in the

Leila Ainge:

memory. And there's certain things that we hook onto, isn't, there?

Leila Ainge:

So when you talk about that closed cognition,

Leila Ainge:

it can happen in many different ways in terms of how

Leila Ainge:

we, think about somebody's

Leila Ainge:

competence in confidence and their

Leila Ainge:

leadership ability. But I wonder if it also

Leila Ainge:

just markers that. It just means that we remember more. And when

Leila Ainge:

you remember more, then you can associate more kind of

Leila Ainge:

thoughts with it. Ah, very interesting.

Leila Ainge:

I'm going to wrap up a little bit. And

Leila Ainge:

it was really interesting that, when I

Leila Ainge:

looked at some of the research that sat around

Leila Ainge:

clothing, I mean, obviously,

Leila Ainge:

clothing has been. And fashion

Leila Ainge:

go hand in hand, and the fashion world

Leila Ainge:

is so geared towards the female

Leila Ainge:

form. And, when you look at that, Professor

Leila Ainge:

Flugel's book from the 1930s, he's talking about the

Leila Ainge:

fact that men, have kind of

Leila Ainge:

moved into more kind of standardized clothing,

Leila Ainge:

and women were the people to be showcasing a bit like

Leila Ainge:

peacocks and putting all of their colors

Leila Ainge:

out there. And that was seen as narcissistic behavior.

Leila Ainge:

And I think over the years, there's been all sorts of

Leila Ainge:

things that clothes kind of, emulate what's happening

Leila Ainge:

in our social lives. So the fact that in

Leila Ainge:

the 80s, women had entered the workplace,

Leila Ainge:

a workplace that had never been designed for them.

Leila Ainge:

And here they were trying to stand shoulder to shoulder with

Leila Ainge:

men and be like men with, their physical

Leila Ainge:

shoulder pads, which you described so well.

Leila Ainge:

And, yet we're in a space now where we're almost

Leila Ainge:

going, but we don't have to be like men and we don't

Leila Ainge:

have to be this and we don't have to fit these rules, and

Leila Ainge:

we can be rebellious. And I really like that

Leila Ainge:

idea that, flugel had in his book,

Leila Ainge:

actually way back when, which was, there are rebellious

Leila Ainge:

dresses. And I just wonder if we've come full

Leila Ainge:

circle a little bit and it's taken the fact that we've had

Leila Ainge:

to expose some of the misogyny and, also the

Leila Ainge:

inequity to be able to kind of go.

Leila Ainge:

Clothing can work for us in a very powerful way if

Leila Ainge:

we let it.

Samantha Harman:

Yeah. And, it's not superficial because it's

Samantha Harman:

something that is part of

Samantha Harman:

our dna.

Leila Ainge:

Ah.

Samantha Harman:

And our identity. For example, a

Samantha Harman:

lot of people describe themselves as a magpie, so they'll say, oh, I'm just

Samantha Harman:

drawn to sparkly things. Actually,

Samantha Harman:

that scientist belief is part of our

Samantha Harman:

evolution, because back in the day, our

Samantha Harman:

ancestors were primed to look for water sources. And,

Samantha Harman:

because water reflects light, we

Samantha Harman:

wanted water. So now when we see something

Samantha Harman:

shiny, we want it, we want to

Samantha Harman:

wear it. So

Samantha Harman:

we're in this time where

Samantha Harman:

clothing is seen as

Samantha Harman:

something superficial to care

Samantha Harman:

about, but at the same time, it's part of

Samantha Harman:

our identity and ultimately it's part of our

Samantha Harman:

legacy. I mean, we all think of

Samantha Harman:

a celebrity or a famous person and

Samantha Harman:

there'll be a piece of clothing that we identify with

Samantha Harman:

them. And m the same with relatives.

Samantha Harman:

If someone that we care about passes

Samantha Harman:

away, we'll likely keep an item of their clothing because

Samantha Harman:

it reminds us of them.

Leila Ainge:

It seems to me that, online spaces and getting

Leila Ainge:

dressed up have something really in common

Leila Ainge:

for us. They're both an extension and an

Leila Ainge:

expression of ourself. And my

Leila Ainge:

research really kind of it

Leila Ainge:

said what online spaces enable to do is they give us

Leila Ainge:

digital affordances, and those affordances allow that

Leila Ainge:

self expression. And, I think both things do similar

Leila Ainge:

things for us. Getting dressed up, being in online

Leila Ainge:

spaces as, entrepreneurs or women

Leila Ainge:

entrepreneurs, it gives us those affordances

Leila Ainge:

in ways that perhaps being in a boardroom or in a

Leila Ainge:

physical office might not have done. And that

Leila Ainge:

was the really kind of interesting and intriguing

Leila Ainge:

thing for me, was just how

Leila Ainge:

women had found innovative ways to use the way

Leila Ainge:

that they dress, not just to protect.

Leila Ainge:

So thinking about that scale again, women who were just

Leila Ainge:

really going for it and going, yeah, this is me.

Leila Ainge:

And, why shouldn't I? And I'm embracing it and I feel

Leila Ainge:

comfy in it. but those women appeared in the research

Leila Ainge:

to be at home with those feelings and had dealt with some of

Leila Ainge:

those uncomfortable feelings. If

Leila Ainge:

people want to know more about this

Leila Ainge:

emotion based approach to coaching and, how you

Leila Ainge:

fuse all of your magic together, where can they

Leila Ainge:

reach you and how can they listen to you?

Samantha Harman:

You can find me at,

Samantha Harman:

thestyleeditor. Co. UK.

Samantha Harman:

You can listen to the nothing

Samantha Harman:

to wear podcast, or you can find me on

Samantha Harman:

Instagram or LinkedIn. I'm everywhere.

Samantha Harman:

I'm always open for a conversation about this stuff.

Leila Ainge:

I do love the fact that you're everywhere, and I am just so

Leila Ainge:

thrilled that you agreed to come onto my podcast today. It's

Leila Ainge:

been a blast chatting with you and, I know I'll be

Leila Ainge:

looking forward to your next LinkedIn post or

Leila Ainge:

Instagram, or even your podcast because you are just

Leila Ainge:

so interesting with your ideas and I know that you really

Leila Ainge:

deeply research everything that you do. So thank

Leila Ainge:

you so much.

Samantha Harman:

Thank you.

Leila Ainge:

That's it for today.

Samantha Harman:

I hope you learned something new, or.

Leila Ainge:

Perhaps I've given you a new way to think about what you

Leila Ainge:

experience. A quick reminder that

Leila Ainge:

rating and reviewing all the podcasts you love really does

Leila Ainge:

help other people find them, which is especially

Leila Ainge:

appreciated by independent podcasters. For

Leila Ainge:

more psychological insights, you'll find all the ways you can connect

Leila Ainge:

with me in the show notes.

Leila Ainge:

Thanks for listening to psychologically speaking with me,

Leila Ainge:

Leila Ange bye for now.

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About the Podcast

Psychologically Speaking with Leila Ainge
Psychological insights, without the jargon. Psychologist & coach Leila Ainge explores the fascinating world of human behaviour, weaving together ground-breaking research & real-life experiences.
A psychologist's insight into the fascinating world of human behaviour without the jargon, with Psychologist & coach, Leila Ainge. Blending scientific research with real experiences, Leila is on a mission to reframe outdated notions of imposter syndrome. Psychologically Speaking delves into Leila's own ground-breaking research, exploring what drives those pesky fraudulent feelings in entrepreneurs, the unexpected advantages, and how you can actually leverage imposter moments to your benefit (yes, really). This podcast is for anyone who has ever felt like a fraud, just moments away from being 'found out'.
This podcast is produced by Decibelle Creative