Imposter through the lens of Intersectionality with Liana Fricker
Intersectionality and the Imposter Experience: Unpacking Identity with Liana Fricker
In this weeks psychologically speaking episode with Liana Fricker we discuss one of the thoughts that sat behind being visible and holding back for my participants 'what if I'm wrong?'
I loved having Liana on as a guest, a self-proclaimed imposter atheist, our conversation touches on intersectionality and we use the topic of sustainability to unravel what happens when we start talking about complex stuff.
Liana also talks about ADHD, self sabotage, emotional intelligence (EQ), and we explore insecurity, empowerment and attribution bias.
My research suggests that rather than a lack of confidence, it's the context and limited resources available to marginalised individuals that often amplify feelings of being an imposter.
Liana Fricker, founder of Inspiration Space and a beacon for solo founders and companies of one, joins the conversation to share her unique insights. Liana’s commitment to aligning human activity with environmental responsibility is reshaping the narrative for conscious entrepreneurs. Recognised by Startups magazine as one of the most influential women in the industry, Liana brings a fresh perspective to the table, challenging the traditional narratives of impostor and advocating for a deeper understanding of individual experiences shaped by race, gender, and neurodiversity.
They also tackle the environmental implications of our consumption habits and the significance of carbon literacy in making informed choices for a sustainable future.
This episode is a call to action for anyone looking to inspire change and make impactful choices, both for themselves and for the planet.
Connect with Liana Fricker on Linkedin , on Instagram @lianafricker, and through her platform Inspiration Space www.inspirationspace.co.uk
For more psychological insights and to connect with Leila Ainge, visit www.leilaainge.co.uk and follow her on Instagram @leilaainge and LinkedIn.
Leila also has a brilliant newsletter - get yourself on the list here: https://www.leilaainge.co.uk/newsletter
While you’re at it, subscribe to Leila’s substack here: https://leilaainge.substack.com/
Psychologically Speaking is proudly produced by Buckers at Decibelle Creative www.decibellecreative.com / @decibelle_creative / LinkedIn.
Transcript
>> Leila Ainge: Welcome to psychologically speaking with me,
Speaker:Leila Ainge. This is a podcast
Speaker:all about human behaviour, weaving
Speaker:together fascinating research, opinions, and real
Speaker:life experiences. I'll give you a psychologist's
Speaker:insight into how we behave in spaces we live
Speaker:and work in, and how they in turn, shape
Speaker:us. It this season, we're exploring
Speaker:my favorite topic, impostor phenomenon.
Speaker:So get comfy and let's dive into today's
Speaker:episode. So far
Speaker:this season, we've heard about different perspectives
Speaker:on the impostor narrative, and today's episode
Speaker:brings some of those ideas together under the umbrella
Speaker:of intersectionality. Now, this is
Speaker:the idea that we have overlapping
Speaker:identities and, um, that these result
Speaker:in different experiences of
Speaker:inequality. We see this in my
Speaker:research, which suggests that instead of thinking that
Speaker:women have a problem with confidence, we need to
Speaker:look at the system and context in which they
Speaker:work. When that person is marginalized,
Speaker:we find that their experiences around visibility,
Speaker:competition, and comparison can be
Speaker:amplified. It helps
Speaker:us to frame the narrative that women might be
Speaker:disproportionately impacted by impostor
Speaker:experiences, not because they're less confident than
Speaker:male counterparts, but because they have
Speaker:access to fewer resources, that the spaces
Speaker:and resources they do have access to support
Speaker:systems of oppression, discrimination, and, um,
Speaker:are dominated by people with privilege.
Speaker:Psychologically speaking, when we reduce
Speaker:someone to.
Speaker:>> Leila Ainge: The identity of a woman who suffers.
Speaker:>> Leila Ainge: From impostor, we ignore or miss
Speaker:other important or challenging parts of that
Speaker:person's identity.
Speaker:>> Leila Ainge: I'm delighted to welcome my next guest.
Speaker:>> Leila Ainge: And their overlapping identities for a
Speaker:discussion that will absolutely change the way you think
Speaker:about sustainability. Liana
Speaker:Fricker is founder of Inspiration
Speaker:Space. She empowers solo founders
Speaker:and companies of one through passion, profit,
Speaker:and impact. Her focus is on
Speaker:harboring human activity with
Speaker:environmental responsibility, paving the way for
Speaker:a new generation of conscious
Speaker:entrepreneurs. Her mission,
Speaker:inspire the inspired. She
Speaker:is mentor for the black business residency at
Speaker:Somerset House and recognized by
Speaker:Startups magazine in 2022 and
Speaker:23 as one of the most
Speaker:influential women in the industry.
Speaker:>> Leila Ainge: So, Liana what I wanted to kind
Speaker:of start out with, really, is I'm
Speaker:interested in your perspective on
Speaker:impostor. And, I mean, I use the phrase
Speaker:impostor phenomenon and for the reasons I've set out
Speaker:earlier in my podcast. Um, but
Speaker:however you choose to use that phrase in your
Speaker:experience, I'm interested in how that's shown up for
Speaker:you. Um, and does it continue to show up for
Speaker:you?
Speaker:>> Liana Fricker: I suppose I am an imposter
Speaker:atheist.
Speaker:>> Leila Ainge: I like the way that you phrase that.
Speaker:>> Liana Fricker: Uh, I'm an atheist in that. First of all, I'm an atheist
Speaker:across the board, but I'm an imposter atheist. I think
Speaker:that what I've realised for
Speaker:myself, a, I didn't even know imposter syndrome was a thing
Speaker:until, I guess, it was maybe trendy. And
Speaker:so it was just everywhere. It's not something
Speaker:that I have ever recognized
Speaker:in myself, the way that people describe
Speaker:it, what
Speaker:I have had experience with. And when
Speaker:people traditionally talk about imposter syndrome, and
Speaker:my reply is like, I think impostor
Speaker:syndrome is a sign that you're not
Speaker:a BSR,
Speaker:that you're
Speaker:thoughtful, you are
Speaker:considerate. Because the way that I always
Speaker:see imposter syndrome describes that you'll put yourself forward
Speaker:for things. And if I don't feel
Speaker:comfortable, no, I don't self forward. If
Speaker:I don't feel like I have enough information, no, I don't
Speaker:talk because there's too many people that do,
Speaker:and there's a lot of
Speaker:windbaggery around. And so.
Speaker:>> Leila Ainge: I was speaking to, um, Laura
Speaker:Stern and Christina Clark of work
Speaker:culturalty, and they, um, have spoken to me
Speaker:about psychological safety. And that
Speaker:is the essence of that isn't know, am I comfortable
Speaker:in this space? Uh, have I got voice? Do
Speaker:I need voice? Um, and do I feel
Speaker:that I can speak up and say what needs to be said?
Speaker:>> Liana Fricker: Because sometimes when I have an idea and I have a perspective
Speaker:from the beginning of my career, I
Speaker:have no problem voicing an
Speaker:opinion and contributing in that
Speaker:way if I'm not interested,
Speaker:or maybe I missed it, I've got ADHD, so I didn't hear it. I
Speaker:mean, there's a whole lot of reasons why I may not
Speaker:contribute in a particular moment. And a lot m of
Speaker:the time in particular, when I was at that point in my career where I was in rooms
Speaker:with senior people as a junior person, I was
Speaker:taking mental notes. I was like,
Speaker:I want to sit here as a fly on the wall and just understand
Speaker:the dynamic and how you're all interacting and how you're talking and learn your
Speaker:language and learn your manners as I'm learning.
Speaker:>> Leila Ainge: I think that's an interesting perspective. Um,
Speaker:I've been in a situation recently where somebody
Speaker:went, oh, it's very quiet in this meeting, and nobody ever
Speaker:talks. And I took the time to
Speaker:email the host afterwards and say, I
Speaker:like your meetings. I like getting the
Speaker:quickfire information, and it works for me, but I will contribute
Speaker:a bit more. And we have this,
Speaker:um, in a bit,
Speaker:like we had presenteeism in
Speaker:workspaces. I think there's a bit of
Speaker:presenteeism of voice isn't there. It's a
Speaker:bit like me having this conversation with you. I'm obviously
Speaker:being mindful of giving you
Speaker:space to talk and then thinking about when I come
Speaker:in, but I also just want to listen to you as
Speaker:well. Right?
Speaker:>> Liana Fricker: And where I get frustrated with
Speaker:the whole conversation around women and impostor syndrome, and I say
Speaker:women in particular, is when it then starts to
Speaker:come into our professional development, how we show up into our careers,
Speaker:because it almost feels like
Speaker:insecurity is being capitalized
Speaker:on and being called
Speaker:something else.
Speaker:And then you almost get, like,
Speaker:gaslit into action so
Speaker:that you can advocate for yourself.
Speaker:And then you don't feel like you're
Speaker:enough because you don't know what you're talking
Speaker:about, which is why you're insecure and you're
Speaker:quiet, no shapes.
Speaker:And then you're just constantly then being. Looking outside of yourself.
Speaker:Okay, now I need a coach for this. I need a social media person for
Speaker:that. I need a landing page. I need a funnel. I need this
Speaker:ebook. I need this. I need more. I need more. I need more. I need more. I need
Speaker:more. I need more. I'm, um. Not enough, not enough, not enough.
Speaker:When, on a foundational level, every experience
Speaker:you've had in your life up to that point has
Speaker:informed how you even see or think about
Speaker:yourself. And until
Speaker:you go deep and think, why
Speaker:do I feel like this? Why is this a
Speaker:problem? Why do I feel it's a problem? How is it showing up for
Speaker:me? What else could it be? I know
Speaker:I was diagnosed with ADHD at 39. A lot
Speaker:makes sense now. That didn't make sense
Speaker:before. And I've recently
Speaker:finished the foundation in, uh,
Speaker:PQ training and mental fitness. And now I
Speaker:understand even more
Speaker:about how I show up and why I am the way that
Speaker:I am. And I am
Speaker:a black woman from America, and
Speaker:I was born being told I had to work ten times as
Speaker:hard for half as much. And that is the least helpful
Speaker:narrative you could ever imprint someone
Speaker:with.
Speaker:>> Leila Ainge: I want to come in there because
Speaker:this was a theme in my research,
Speaker:and the research was showing that
Speaker:visibility is a challenge. It's
Speaker:obviously showing that, um,
Speaker:our ability to speak up.
Speaker:It was also saying that
Speaker:certain women and women of
Speaker:color, um, women with
Speaker:ADHD, women just
Speaker:intersections and inequality
Speaker:was just an extra layer in
Speaker:the muddle that is impostor.
Speaker:There's a really good HBR article, and,
Speaker:um, it's Rakita
Speaker:Tulsan. I think I've pronounced that correctly. And, um,
Speaker:she wrote this HBR article that says, stop
Speaker:telling women they've got impostor syndrome.
Speaker:And the whole point of her article, and I think she was probably
Speaker:the first person to say, this
Speaker:is. That's not impostor.
Speaker:That is racism or sexism or
Speaker:homophobia, or it's,
Speaker:um, almost whatever ism we put against
Speaker:neurodivergence. Because we have this idea
Speaker:that you have to fix difference, but you don't. You
Speaker:don't have to fix difference, you've got to enable
Speaker:difference. And, um,
Speaker:when we get that right, then
Speaker:people have voice and people feel safe. But
Speaker:unless you're tackling those structural issues,
Speaker:nothing ever changes. But to what you said there,
Speaker:those are the narratives that have fed your
Speaker:career do well, work ten
Speaker:times as hard. And then no wonder
Speaker:we have to.
Speaker:>> Liana Fricker: Ask ourselves, how complicit are we in
Speaker:holding up structure? There's a movie from the
Speaker:Amy's, uh, called hear no evil, see
Speaker:no evil. And it's Richard Pryor and Dan Aykroyd. And
Speaker:Richard Pryor is a black man who is blind. And Dan Aykroyd
Speaker:is a white man who cannot hear. And there's a scene in the
Speaker:movie where Dan hackroyd basically tells
Speaker:Richard Pryor that he is black. And he's like, you mean I'm not
Speaker:white? And Dave Chappelle has a skit.
Speaker:It's a play on this as well. So this is what I mean about I was
Speaker:imprinted with this narrative as a child because
Speaker:my mother was imprinted with it, my father was imprinted. But this is
Speaker:generational. At what point do we stop telling people
Speaker:this story? Because if you are led
Speaker:to believe that everything that you do
Speaker:has to be exceptional to have less,
Speaker:of course you're going to be a workaholic. Of course you're going to be an
Speaker:infectionist. But that's
Speaker:not necessarily the truth
Speaker:of the existence. But it's a story that I've been
Speaker:told and I've internalized that has then turned into other things
Speaker:and other behaviors and other habits.
Speaker:I am a human being like anyone else.
Speaker:I suppose it's around the
Speaker:idea that if everything
Speaker:around you is always
Speaker:telling you that you need to be more, you need to be better. And women,
Speaker:we have this as well. If you look at us
Speaker:as gender, how helpful is
Speaker:that? And that's why I push against
Speaker:some of the for women
Speaker:only stuff that has come out over the last
Speaker:decade. Because I'm like, we can
Speaker:inspire and educate women until the cows come
Speaker:home, but until we fix
Speaker:the system and until we actually deal
Speaker:with how men see women.
Speaker:We will fail. So
Speaker:we might as well just go on and out of the beach or something. You see what I
Speaker:mean? It's almost like it's a futile
Speaker:effort and so we're putting all this
Speaker:energy into it. But how come it's not working? Because we need more
Speaker:women. And then you've got women who's like, look, I already broke the
Speaker:ceiling. I do not want to have to be the only
Speaker:person asked to mentor the women in the business.
Speaker:I have enough going on right now.
Speaker:>> Leila Ainge: I'm going to have a wonderful, um,
Speaker:woman called Deb Edwards come on to. I know
Speaker:Deb and I'm
Speaker:hoping to speak to her about the nonsense behind
Speaker:the fact. Know women
Speaker:just need more investment
Speaker:and money and it doesn't seem to happen. And we
Speaker:know that women have traditionally not been as connected.
Speaker:Um, my current PhD research is all around
Speaker:entrepreneurial networks and not really
Speaker:saying, how do we make things better for women? It's going,
Speaker:well. How are women carving the way and can men learn from
Speaker:that? How about we
Speaker:turn that the other way around? Um, but there are
Speaker:definitely inequalities there
Speaker:unless we fundamentally go back and go, no,
Speaker:this isn't about my confidence. And this is the thing
Speaker:around impostor that really gets me is that when I spoke
Speaker:to women and
Speaker:that narrative around ADHD, which I
Speaker:think you can, um, probably
Speaker:give more, um, context to than I
Speaker:could was really already.
Speaker:I know that concentration and memory
Speaker:and organization are, ah, going to be,
Speaker:um, different for me in business,
Speaker:but they are the types of things that we get judged
Speaker:on, on how we show up and how we're visible. And I mean,
Speaker:every other post in the marketing space is be
Speaker:consistent. And the women I
Speaker:spoke to were going, God, these things are just so
Speaker:dangerous. These narratives are dangerous, these
Speaker:behaviors are dangerous. And,
Speaker:um, as a psychologist, I look to
Speaker:my own profession and go, wow. Nudge
Speaker:theory, um, behavioral
Speaker:science. We've been telling people that
Speaker:consistency and doing this and subliminal messaging,
Speaker:this, that and the other, we've got a lot to
Speaker:answer for as well. And actually we have this huge
Speaker:replication crisis in psychology going, guess, uh,
Speaker:what, some of that nudge theory stuff, not been able to
Speaker:replicate it. So
Speaker:I think there's a lot to be said about, yes,
Speaker:some things do work and they work brilliantly. Doesn't
Speaker:mean you have to do it. And we were just talking
Speaker:before we started recording about the fact you're going,
Speaker:are we doing video? And I went, well, yeah, but I might not use
Speaker:it because I had to make a decision around whether I wanted to become
Speaker:a good video editor, uh, in the process of getting
Speaker:this conversation out. Um, and
Speaker:that, for me, boils down to a lot of
Speaker:the stuff that sits around the thoughts in
Speaker:our head. It's just extra noise in just
Speaker:getting on with the day job.
Speaker:>> Liana Fricker: Fundamentally, we're talking about the human condition.
Speaker:We label the human condition. And
Speaker:when I think about my ADHD, I was undiagnosed
Speaker:until I was 39. Been obvious the whole
Speaker:time. Um, as the mother
Speaker:of boys, I say, I'm a boy mom who was raised
Speaker:by a girl dad. And I do think that for
Speaker:me, it gives me a very interesting sort of
Speaker:insight. And both of my sons have
Speaker:ADHd. I have ADHD. And
Speaker:we think differently. We've got different skills, different tools.
Speaker:My husband is neurotypical. And my God, I love that neurotypical
Speaker:mind because that neurotypical mind means we don't miss flights.
Speaker:The machine runs with that
Speaker:beautiful mindset. And he often jokes that he's
Speaker:the neurodiverse where in our house. Because he is.
Speaker:>> Leila Ainge: Yeah, sorry, you said that, um, it was obvious.
Speaker:Was it obvious to you?
Speaker:>> Liana Fricker: It's obvious to the bumps. It was like, without a
Speaker:shadow of doubt, it was obvious
Speaker:in women. Girls, it presents differently. But
Speaker:again, this is where that kind of whole intersection comes
Speaker:in. I m was reading the
Speaker:book, and now for the life of me, I can't remember the name of it because
Speaker:age. And
Speaker:for every
Speaker:positive comment that a neurotypical
Speaker:child gets, an ADHD child
Speaker:gets 20 negative ones.
Speaker:>> Leila Ainge: Yeah.
Speaker:>> Liana Fricker: And so you just think about. So imagine a world where you've
Speaker:already been told you've got to work ten times hard for five
Speaker:times as much.
Speaker:For every one positive comment, you're
Speaker:getting 20 negative ones.
Speaker:Yes, it's. A lot exists, but we all are
Speaker:so complicit in reinforcing these stories because
Speaker:they're just stories. They're stories.
Speaker:This is what we tell people. What is normal, what is not
Speaker:normal, what success is, what happiness
Speaker:is. For one person, happiness is the pursuit of
Speaker:endless consumer goods. And for another person, it's a
Speaker:nap. That's why the environment is in the
Speaker:state that it's in, because we're constantly chasing outside of
Speaker:ourselves to live up to these stories that we didn't
Speaker:even create. And this is the
Speaker:problem.
Speaker:>> Leila Ainge: I always like to kind of frame things from a point
Speaker:of how do we bring empowerment into this?
Speaker:Because that takes away the emotion of doing
Speaker:things in a particular way, right or wrong, that m
Speaker:empowerment looks like, okay, I can try
Speaker:this. I can have a go at this. I might not be there yet, but I
Speaker:know I can have a go and I can fail safe.
Speaker:And I wonder, um, how
Speaker:that falls into where we are with the
Speaker:sustainability agenda. And that was why I was really excited
Speaker:to get you on, because you're
Speaker:really working in that space. And I'm going to get
Speaker:you to describe to me in a nutshell what sustainability
Speaker:means to you. But I wondered if we could talk about
Speaker:how impostor, uh, experience
Speaker:kind of comes into that. Because often we feel like we
Speaker:have to be a bit of an expert in something to have a voice or an opinion
Speaker:or to make a change. But if
Speaker:we're looking at that empowerment frame,
Speaker:how might imposter experiences hold us back? But
Speaker:first up, what is
Speaker:sustainability to you? And what could it be
Speaker:for us?
Speaker:>> Liana Fricker: I suppose, great question.
Speaker:For me, the word
Speaker:sustainability, it's a buzword. It's jargon.
Speaker:And the word is meaningless. To be perfectly honest, it means nothing to me,
Speaker:the word at all. Seriously, it doesn't mean
Speaker:anything because it's a buzword
Speaker:and it's about
Speaker:how you live. We m
Speaker:can talk all we want. What we
Speaker:have to do now is to change
Speaker:behavior. And, ah, for
Speaker:me, quote unquote, sustainability is
Speaker:about living my life,
Speaker:uh, in a way, and inspiring others to live their lives in
Speaker:a way that is equitable
Speaker:and inclusive and
Speaker:balanced in between
Speaker:humanity and the world. The earth
Speaker:that we live on, because the reality is no one gives a shit
Speaker:about the planet. And I say that because
Speaker:the earth is going to earth. But climate has always
Speaker:changed. You can look back through the history
Speaker:of time m and see how a change in climate has
Speaker:changed human behavior, but which
Speaker:hunt when we look at
Speaker:racism, in particular in the
Speaker:colonial times, and these narratives that we have around black
Speaker:and brown people being tired and lazy,
Speaker:how the heat affects your
Speaker:sensibilities. This is climate. The climate has always
Speaker:changed. And people have always used their knowledge of climate to
Speaker:control behavior. It's
Speaker:documented. And so what we have to do
Speaker:is to stop pretending like we're these omnipotent forces that all of a
Speaker:sudden we're going to put the genie back in the bottle.
Speaker:The Earth is going to Earth. The only person that lost
Speaker:know the great asteroid were the dinosaurs. Earth
Speaker:is still here. So we have to
Speaker:kind of not be.
Speaker:So I don't
Speaker:know even like, uh, what the word would be. But
Speaker:we need to realize that we live on a
Speaker:planet that we impact, of
Speaker:course. But what's more important for
Speaker:me are the people on this planet and how they
Speaker:are impacted by the change
Speaker:in the climate. And so if we think about this as
Speaker:a hamburger, on the one side we have adaption,
Speaker:on uh, the other we have mitigation. And in the middle we have
Speaker:justice. It's about climate
Speaker:justice. Because in the global north
Speaker:we use so much resource.
Speaker:>> Leila Ainge: Mhm.
Speaker:>> Liana Fricker: And that has a detriment, not
Speaker:only environmentally, but when we think about
Speaker:the pollution in water because of fast fashion,
Speaker:we think about how much stuff we buy
Speaker:clothing that we then send to charity shops, that then
Speaker:ends up on the beaches of Ghana, that then
Speaker:destroys local textile markets.
Speaker:That's the biggest problem, right?
Speaker:That is the problem. And we have control over our
Speaker:behavior. People. Oh, the companies, the companies. The companies
Speaker:sell to the people who buy Bella stuff.
Speaker:>> Leila Ainge: I love what you're saying here. And to bring that back
Speaker:into a psychological frame, um,
Speaker:the psychologist Katie Milton is all about habits
Speaker:and um, how we make better
Speaker:choices, right? And
Speaker:um, there's this
Speaker:economic bias which is we're
Speaker:unable to make good choices when it doesn't give us
Speaker:that instant gratification. We tend to be
Speaker:biased towards. I'm going to eat my cake now
Speaker:and not worry about my long term health goals.
Speaker:And um, at the point at which we're recording this, it's
Speaker:currently January. So at the moment everybody's talking
Speaker:about whether they're keeping their goals or letting
Speaker:them go. And a lot of habit setting
Speaker:fails because we're focused on the end goal,
Speaker:which seems very far away. And
Speaker:I love what you've just done there because you've instantly
Speaker:just said to me, carbon literacy, let's
Speaker:just boil it down to this simple thing of use
Speaker:less. And actually, how do you
Speaker:boil that down to yourself? And you frame that
Speaker:within, perfectly within an ADHD way,
Speaker:which is, well, I don't have time and I don't have to think and it takes the choice
Speaker:out. And I just love how you've done that.
Speaker:And for me, I think there's a real skill in the
Speaker:way that you do that, uh, conversation.
Speaker:And that helps me kind of
Speaker:talk about the way in which we tend to think of
Speaker:experts. Because yes,
Speaker:you can understand the discrete detail and
Speaker:the nuance around sustainability targets
Speaker:and what that might mean for modeling and this, that and the
Speaker:other. But what most of us need to
Speaker:hear and understand is just relatable
Speaker:stories and narratives.
Speaker:>> Liana Fricker: And this is where that carbon literacy. So carbon literacy is
Speaker:actually an understanding of
Speaker:your impact on the planet
Speaker:and the climate crisis and how human
Speaker:behavior changes or
Speaker:has changed here, right? In
Speaker:a nutshell. And it's an actual credited course that
Speaker:you go on. It's one day training. And it's amazing because you
Speaker:do learn the science, so that when someone
Speaker:is making a point, well, it's
Speaker:cold. I thought it was global warming. Well, you're talking about weather, and
Speaker:weather and climate aren't the same. And
Speaker:understanding that this
Speaker:is about, in particular, if you're in the global
Speaker:north, how
Speaker:disproportionate our extraction has
Speaker:been. Um, and how
Speaker:disproportionately the global south
Speaker:feels. Droughts,
Speaker:floods. And now what's happening is that this is coming home to roost
Speaker:in the global north, you see? So it's like, this
Speaker:train is not going to be late. And
Speaker:we do have to change our behavior, which is why it's about
Speaker:adaption mitigation. And in the middle, it's about climate
Speaker:justice. It's ensuring that people who live
Speaker:in urban city centers don't have
Speaker:to worry about their children in asthma
Speaker:because people are mad about congestion charges.
Speaker:This impacts us on our streets all the time
Speaker:in our lives. We just don't realize because we don't have the language. And that's where that
Speaker:ignorance comes in once you're carbon literate. In the same way, if you were
Speaker:financially literate and you understand how money
Speaker:works and how you can get your money to work for you, you
Speaker:can then make informed choices. And what I have found
Speaker:is I don't have climate
Speaker:anxiety because I have this
Speaker:understanding of how this is all playing out.
Speaker:And I'm not saying this is not a threat. It is a threat.
Speaker:Of course it is. But I
Speaker:also know that
Speaker:each one of us can do something
Speaker:so small to change it.
Speaker:And you can combine that with something
Speaker:that enriches your life,
Speaker:instead of getting in the car,
Speaker:walking with the kids to
Speaker:wherever you can go, instead of, uh. And this
Speaker:is where I find, and this is where the cost of living crisis comes
Speaker:in. Because we also shame around money.
Speaker:Instead of saying, oh, I can't afford it, because you
Speaker:can't afford it, you can look at the environmental
Speaker:impact, oh, well, we can't
Speaker:go to the Maldives. Not because we can't afford it,
Speaker:but because of the environmental impact. So if you want to be
Speaker:Saint amalgamus, go have that moment for yourself.
Speaker:I can't buy the Chanel bag.
Speaker:The fact that I can't afford it doesn't even have to go in the conversation.
Speaker:I'm trying to change my consumption habit. Then
Speaker:all of a sudden, we don't need to look outside of ourselves.
Speaker:We buy stuff because the world told us, you'll
Speaker:feel good when you buy it. I always get really annoyed when people are
Speaker:like, uh, retail
Speaker:therapy. I'm like, no, you're going to go tell somebody to
Speaker:smoke because they don't feel good. No. Could you imagine
Speaker:if people were posting things around smoking because they had a bad day?
Speaker:Everyone would be like, oh, you were a monster.
Speaker:But people would feel if you treat yourself to that
Speaker:8th, those stupid flasks with all the
Speaker:colors.
Speaker:>> Leila Ainge: I've got a wonderful conversation as part of this
Speaker:series with Samantha Harmon, who's the style editor.
Speaker:And she talks, know, just these
Speaker:wardrobe graveyards that we've got. I, um,
Speaker:want to pose something to you. Um, and
Speaker:it's this idea that with
Speaker:a classic impostor experience
Speaker:is our fear of being
Speaker:called out. And, um,
Speaker:the statement that kept coming up in the research with
Speaker:my participants was very, what if they say I'm
Speaker:wrong?
Speaker:>> Liana Fricker: And, um.
Speaker:>> Leila Ainge: My kind of comeback on that, I think as a psychologist
Speaker:is kind of going, yeah, isn't it interesting that
Speaker:we sit there worrying about this? But where and
Speaker:how are we giving people the skills
Speaker:to, um, come back from those
Speaker:types of questions? Because we know it happens. We know
Speaker:that, especially on LinkedIn, I think
Speaker:spaces like that, um, it
Speaker:invites very open challenge and
Speaker:critique, which is good. Conversation is good if
Speaker:it's done respectfully. Um, but
Speaker:where are we training people on how
Speaker:to. Or educating them, um, on how to come back from things
Speaker:and what you've just said there, I wonder if that talks to it a little
Speaker:bit in terms of when you get yourself
Speaker:educated on a few things, then it's easy to come back and
Speaker:go, yeah, that's weather, that's climate, and
Speaker:you can really dampen down a fiery
Speaker:conversation because there's nothing worse than feeling like you're getting into a
Speaker:polarized conversation, and that's not what
Speaker:you're aiming to do that day. You don't want to have a big
Speaker:conversation on LinkedIn or Instagram with somebody you don't know about,
Speaker:a big topic, um, but you still want
Speaker:to be yourself. And I wonder if you've got
Speaker:a view on that at all.
Speaker:>> Liana Fricker: That's really interesting. The wheels in my head are turning whenever I make
Speaker:facial expressions. I can think you.
Speaker:What I find very interesting about that is in the first instance,
Speaker:when you first asked the question, the first thing I was like, why would someone tell
Speaker:you you were wrong? And that goes back to what I'm talking about. It's like,
Speaker:I don't speak unless I think I'm right.
Speaker:There is no such thing as an expert. First of
Speaker:all, there's no such thing as an expert. So
Speaker:I don't consider myself to be an expert. I am a human being with a
Speaker:perspective and an opinion.
Speaker:Nothing. And then this is
Speaker:what I mean about these narratives and stuff and where it's like, we've got to
Speaker:go so much deeper than that. If you're worried that someone's going to call you
Speaker:out for being wrong, we have to ask more questions about
Speaker:why you're worried someone's going to call you out for being
Speaker:wrong. How do you see yourself? Because if you're walking
Speaker:around, be like, but I'm an expert. I'm supposed to show up like this. Well, there's no such thing as
Speaker:an expert. It's all so much deeper for me
Speaker:than that, which is why I find that question so interesting, because it's like,
Speaker:well, why is that the
Speaker:worry? Because in particular
Speaker:circumstance where you can control. You're
Speaker:opening your mouth so you can
Speaker:control that.
Speaker:There's a lot of stuff that I engage in and I see that I
Speaker:don't comment on because I don't have value to add. I don't have
Speaker:a perspective and nothing to say. That's not imposter
Speaker:syndrome, it's just time management. Right? So
Speaker:energy, we have to tell people
Speaker:they have to be talking. This is a real
Speaker:thing. And it comes in like, to have a business
Speaker:grow your brand, you got to be on Instagram x number of times a day. But
Speaker:that's just them talking. And this has an environmental
Speaker:impact because all of this uses
Speaker:energy. The servers, the
Speaker:AI, the streaming, this all part
Speaker:of the same thing.
Speaker:>> Leila Ainge: Where I got to with this is, uh,
Speaker:I know in coaching conversations
Speaker:it would go to just always be curious
Speaker:when people have a different perspective and viewpoint
Speaker:because it's an emotion leveler.
Speaker:Curiosity is the answer to most things. And,
Speaker:oh, I wonder why they've got that perspective. Take
Speaker:pause and, hey, maybe don't reply straight
Speaker:away. Also, we know that there are
Speaker:people who are not as m curious and therefore their opinion
Speaker:will be fairly rigid. Well, hey, that's for them
Speaker:to go and find the right time to do that
Speaker:self reflection and get to that point. But
Speaker:we don't have to call that out either.
Speaker:So it's a really interesting thing. So
Speaker:a lot of my research is around the
Speaker:online and social space, and it's such an
Speaker:interesting place where we think about how we engage as
Speaker:humans. As a cyberpsychologist,
Speaker:I believe that online is an extension of
Speaker:real life. It isn't separate. It's totally
Speaker:interweaved. Um, but also
Speaker:it's not a bad place to be. I don't feel that it's a
Speaker:negative place that's making us into horrible people
Speaker:or causing addiction. I think that
Speaker:we are the type of people who are very social and get
Speaker:addicted to things. And therefore, when you give us a platform,
Speaker:we'll also get ourselves very socially attached to it
Speaker:and addicted. So it's
Speaker:separating out things. And then I think what we also
Speaker:see is then a very, um, kind
Speaker:of strong,
Speaker:undiluted version of
Speaker:people in spaces such as the
Speaker:comments section. But there are definitely, I
Speaker:think, um, coming back to what we
Speaker:know is intersections. If you are a woman
Speaker:entrepreneur in a space that has been
Speaker:predominantly, um, filled with
Speaker:male experts, then perhaps that's
Speaker:going to throw you more attention than other people.
Speaker:But yeah, it's just such an interesting concept because
Speaker:that narrative comes through to people who
Speaker:talk about impostor. They go, what if I'm wrong? And
Speaker:there's a, um, participant and her pseudonym is
Speaker:Asima. And you know,
Speaker:what if I'm wrong? What if they say I'm wrong? And this
Speaker:person is more than qualified to say what
Speaker:they want to say. And actually, they don't even need to be qualified
Speaker:to say it. They happen to be a yoga teacher. But even if they weren't
Speaker:qualified and just loved yoga, you can say what you
Speaker:want. You can say that, um, there's no law
Speaker:against saying it unless it's offensive.
Speaker:>> Liana Fricker: What do you think about the Internet? Use something.
Speaker:Because I'm a very online person. I've been a very online person
Speaker:since the days of AOL and plugging it
Speaker:in on the phone. That generation of
Speaker:people, and
Speaker:now with AI,
Speaker:people are producing more content that has ever been
Speaker:created before. And that's not a good thing
Speaker:because it dilutes everything and
Speaker:everything becomes noisy. And
Speaker:it's very easy to create bots
Speaker:and they can then just respond to stuff and then
Speaker:add to more noise. And how many
Speaker:comments are actually even people? And some people,
Speaker:they like the dopamine rush of being online and fighting online
Speaker:because in their actual life they're disempowered from using
Speaker:their own voice. And so they take it out in the comment section.
Speaker:And this is where that empathy piece comes in. Empathy is big.
Speaker:Like, why is someone showing up like that? And
Speaker:we have to work on ourselves first so
Speaker:that we have resilience. So that
Speaker:should someone clack back in the comment section, we
Speaker:can look at it, approach it with empathy,
Speaker:curiosity, maybe comment
Speaker:back maybe ignore it, but not let that
Speaker:slow us down. If
Speaker:we felt that the message we wanted to share
Speaker:needed to be shared, and then that goes back into,
Speaker:we don't always have to be talking, but if
Speaker:you were talking because someone told you that to get ahead in your
Speaker:career, to grow your business, you had to talk. And the message you
Speaker:put out there, you weren't confident about because you don't actually know that much
Speaker:about it, but someone told you you had to. Yeah.
Speaker:I can understand why you might be nervous if someone comes back because you wouldn't know
Speaker:it. And then this is
Speaker:where this all kind of starts to come
Speaker:in together and you have to think
Speaker:about what is it in it for
Speaker:me? What's in it for
Speaker:me? And play to
Speaker:your strengths. I try to design failure out
Speaker:of my existence so that
Speaker:my life is easier. I've
Speaker:turned using the word discipline, which triggers
Speaker:me into self love, which actually came from a
Speaker:call conversation I had earlier today. So thank you, James.
Speaker:>> Leila Ainge: Um.
Speaker:>> Liana Fricker: Discipline triggers me, but discipline
Speaker:sounds like the point of the game is to
Speaker:fight as hard as you can against your own, um, instincts
Speaker:by your nature, then that obviously comes from my
Speaker:ADHD. So if
Speaker:I don't have to fight against
Speaker:my nature because I designed my existence to be in
Speaker:flow, I don't meet discipline. But now we're calling it self
Speaker:love, so it is that, and that's where that
Speaker:consistency comes in. I think consistency is a
Speaker:beautiful thing. This is also why I really like PQ trainings,
Speaker:because with my brain, my ADHD,
Speaker:it has helped me rewire the impact
Speaker:that my central nervous system has over certain things
Speaker:and to then stop getting myself into
Speaker:these self sabotage loops, which would ultimately create
Speaker:more stress and overwhelm
Speaker:and to create new habits by
Speaker:having more honest conversations with myself, doing things
Speaker:differently. And that is this form of
Speaker:consistency because it's got to come with ease, and it
Speaker:comes with ease when you're intrinsically motivated,
Speaker:not when you feel bullied by yourself.
Speaker:>> Leila Ainge: From a psychological perspective, we kind of think about
Speaker:this as kind, um, of like a hostile
Speaker:attribution bias.
Speaker:Let me frame this. Rejection. Um,
Speaker:so, uh, ADHD and rejection
Speaker:and that kind of sense of
Speaker:sensitivity to rejection can be very strong
Speaker:for some people with ADHD.
Speaker:>> Liana Fricker: Not everyone so wise, but for some better.
Speaker:>> Leila Ainge: Yeah. So
Speaker:when you have that reaction to
Speaker:rejection,
Speaker:it can result in a behavior which is very
Speaker:hostile. And that's what you're kind of describing there,
Speaker:isn't it? But you don't have to have ADHD
Speaker:to know what that looks and feels like. I think that's a common
Speaker:human, um, experience.
Speaker:It's more pronounced and it's
Speaker:more challenging for some people than others.
Speaker:But we do tend, and coming back to some of that stuff
Speaker:around Katie Milkman and psychology of
Speaker:choice and taking an easy road,
Speaker:um, being able to go
Speaker:through, push through things that are easy rather
Speaker:than hard. There's a sweet spot, though, isn't
Speaker:there? And the psychologist in me is going, Leela. Yeah, but a
Speaker:little bit of stress is good, and we know that, but
Speaker:it's such a really
Speaker:interesting dynamic around how much stress is
Speaker:okay, how much challenge, how much we need to
Speaker:be kicked up the backside to make a change and
Speaker:to take action, how
Speaker:much we need to be empowered. And I think
Speaker:a lot of these conversations sit underneath that,
Speaker:uh, bubbling cauldron of impostor,
Speaker:as I would describe it, the old world impostor
Speaker:syndrome, actually, when we start to go
Speaker:right down into the deep depths and the
Speaker:roots of how this has happened is how we've been told
Speaker:to think and feel. It's how we show up in
Speaker:the world, and it's also how we know
Speaker:to make good choices for ourselves. And if you've never been
Speaker:taught or you've never seen that behavior around
Speaker:you, people making those good choices, how would you
Speaker:know? Um, so I love what you're
Speaker:saying. It's really giving me
Speaker:different ways to think about sustainability. And
Speaker:I'm definitely questioning now that earlier
Speaker:conversation we had where I said, oh, yes, well, about
Speaker:the video and not having to worry about showing up
Speaker:all presented brilliantly and having my
Speaker:hair done and this, that, and the other. And I'm now thinking,
Speaker:maybe I just say, actually,
Speaker:it's a probably good thing, and I'm contributing to not
Speaker:adding hours of video to the Internet.
Speaker:>> Liana Fricker: This is it. This is exactly it.
Speaker:I'm glad you said it, because I was going to say that you weren't. Exactly.
Speaker:This is exactly it. It's just
Speaker:reframing what
Speaker:already exists. When we think about
Speaker:rejection, the humans are wired
Speaker:to not want to be rejected, because back when we lived
Speaker:off the land, that meant you were probably going to start, right?
Speaker:So being outcast is no great,
Speaker:uh, none of us want that neurotypical neurodiverse whatever.
Speaker:And then the stories that we're told, how
Speaker:we show up and then some of what we think is good
Speaker:and what we think is bad. One of my big insights over the last kind
Speaker:of four months is what I thought
Speaker:was good is not good for
Speaker:me. And that turns into
Speaker:the hustle culture, the
Speaker:rise and grind. If
Speaker:you want to start a business and you're not working on it 80 hours
Speaker:a week or you haven't quit your full time job, you're not serious about
Speaker:it. That's not healthy.
Speaker:And for a long time, not only did I internalize that,
Speaker:I shared it. And
Speaker:it's like, no, that's why people burn out. That's
Speaker:why people can't recognize what's enough. That's why people can't have
Speaker:gratitude. That's why people end up divorced
Speaker:or smoking or this or that. Because we've
Speaker:been taught to, uh, believe that that is a good thing,
Speaker:that we are more worthy when we work more
Speaker:hours. And that is not
Speaker:true at all.
Speaker:>> Leila Ainge: There's this whole thing around slow down to speed up.
Speaker:For me at the moment, that seems to kind
Speaker:of be coming into my life not only because I am,
Speaker:um, working, I am, um,
Speaker:researching and
Speaker:parenting and that softer
Speaker:kindness coming through and saying,
Speaker:I don't have to feel that I'm in a hustle
Speaker:place or trying to meet. I mean,
Speaker:I think this podcast, I'd originally thought it might
Speaker:launch in September last year, and actually
Speaker:that just wasn't going to work for me. Um,
Speaker:and I changed the date and I don't think anybody
Speaker:noticed apart from me.
Speaker:It is what it is. But there's also a
Speaker:joy with human nature, I think, around
Speaker:the fact that we can allow ourselves to concertina our
Speaker:effort and we can ramp up and we
Speaker:can achieve brilliant things under pressure when
Speaker:we need to. Um, that for me, feels
Speaker:more like the resiliency conversations around the ability to
Speaker:do it when you need to and be able to have the recovery
Speaker:and bounce back time. But it's not that
Speaker:sustainable state, is it? That's
Speaker:the problematic point that you talk to around
Speaker:divorce and bad health and poor
Speaker:outcomes in life.
Speaker:>> Liana Fricker: And I love nothing more than going, like, when I'm all in, I'm m
Speaker:all in. And I love that energy. I love that
Speaker:energy. Where it started to become
Speaker:toxic for me was when I didn't have that
Speaker:energy.
Speaker:And the
Speaker:lack of energy would ruminate in my head
Speaker:around that. You're supposed to, but you must, you
Speaker:need to, you must. And the thing is,
Speaker:it wasn't inspiring me to action, it was
Speaker:just adding more anxiety. So then instead
Speaker:of like flight or flight, it was like just the old freeze and
Speaker:flop. And I hate freeze and flop. I hate freeze and flop
Speaker:more than fight flight, hate freeze. I was like the
Speaker:worst, the worst.
Speaker:>> Leila Ainge: I've not heard the flop. I hear a lot of iterations
Speaker:on this, like um, fight, flight,
Speaker:freeze form, but I've not heard the flop
Speaker:a Jackie power.
Speaker:I use this, um, in my paper on
Speaker:impostor. I, um, talk about how actually,
Speaker:the way in which women that I spoke to described
Speaker:impostor. And, um, I'm going to say a long word that
Speaker:I might fail at saying now, a phenomenological,
Speaker:um, analysis of people's
Speaker:conversations. And so the words that
Speaker:women used, um, about impostor were very
Speaker:dynamic, energetic words like whoosh
Speaker:and waterfall. And
Speaker:you think about crescendos and a build up of
Speaker:something, and then it's crashing down, this failure or this
Speaker:stress point. Um, and I talked about that fight and
Speaker:flight response to impostor as well. So
Speaker:it's all part of the psyche and how we think
Speaker:about these things as well. It all meshes
Speaker:together. It's been an
Speaker:illuminating conversation, which I think I knew it would
Speaker:be. I first met you, um, well,
Speaker:I saw you rather than meet you at the doing it for the
Speaker:kids, um, meetup in 2023,
Speaker:and I wanted to speak to you,
Speaker:but I was so exhausted by chatting
Speaker:to lots of wonderful people that I sat on a sofa
Speaker:and just thought, I'll make contact. And I'm so
Speaker:glad that I did. And I really appreciate you coming
Speaker:on to share your experiences of
Speaker:intersections and how that comes with
Speaker:impostor. I think the bit
Speaker:that I've really enjoyed is just
Speaker:how you have, um, changed the way I'm thinking
Speaker:about sustainability a bit. And I hope that people who are
Speaker:listening to this can take something from that as well. It's
Speaker:such a different perspective and you are just a
Speaker:brilliant storyteller. I think that's what I know you
Speaker:for.
Speaker:>> Liana Fricker: Well, thank you. It's been a pleasure to be here.
Speaker:Um, anyone who's listening, thank you very much.
Speaker:And if you take anything away from this conversation,
Speaker:just know that the most powerful tools
Speaker:that you have are your inspiration and
Speaker:your ability to choose.
Speaker:>> Leila Ainge: Absolutely. Thank you.
Speaker:>> Leila Ainge: That's it for today. I hope you
Speaker:learned something new, or perhaps I've
Speaker:given you a new way to think about what you
Speaker:experience. A quick
Speaker:reminder that rating and reviewing all
Speaker:the podcasts you love really does help other
Speaker:people find them, which is especially
Speaker:appreciated by independent
Speaker:podcasters. For more
Speaker:psychological insights, you'll find all the
Speaker:ways you can connect with me in the show
Speaker:notes.
Speaker:>> Leila Ainge: You.
Speaker:>> Leila Ainge: Thanks for listening to, psychologically speaking
Speaker:with me, Leela Ainge
Speaker:M bye for now.
