41. Drawing Belonging: Darren Scotland on ambition and place, the goal experiments
Designer and illustrator Darren Scotland, founder of Ace of Place, joins psychologist Leila Ainge to talk about creative ambition, belonging, and the self-doubt that often comes with growth.
Darren’s 2026 goal is to grow his business from a solo studio into a collaborative creative brand — one that celebrates homes, buildings, and the stories that make them meaningful. Together, he and Leila unpack what it means to balance ambition with authenticity, to manage fear of failure, and to build systems strong enough to hold a bigger vision.
This conversation explores:
- How our sense of place shapes identity and purpose
- Why flexibility and structure are both essential for creative growth
- The inner voice that whispers “Who do you think you are?”
- legitimacy, belonging, and self-belief in business
If you’ve ever tried to scale a business, start a creative project, or make your work feel real in the eyes of others, Darren’s story will resonate.
🎧 Listen for practical insight, honest reflection, and a reminder that success isn’t just built — it’s believed.
Transcript
It is all about celebrating places and that that obviously ties into ties into homes more
specifically.
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:But I've drawn lots of football stadiums.
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:I drew Leeds Town Hall where myself and my wife, we got married.
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:Parkinson building in Leeds where people graduate.
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:So it's about celebrating these these.
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:buildings, but more than buildings, the places that matter, that mean something to us.
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:and everything in between.
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:I love it.
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:Belonging and place is just a massive part of our identity and who we are.
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:at
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:I live in a terrace street, classic kind of red brick terrace.
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:There's thousands of them around here, but this one means something to me and
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:that's why I want to try and capture and celebrate for people,
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:we make sense of ourselves through the communities that we're in.
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:So
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:I'm exploring that through a psychological lens and you're exploring that through that
artistic lens
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:I think if we're going to go into a little bit of the kind of psychology behind it all.
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:I was brought up as a, I was a kind of Air Force brat.
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:So I was born in Swindon I lived in Germany for six years.
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:I lived in all kinds of different places.
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:I went to 16 different schools over my, childhood.
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:And I think I can remember being somewhat
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:perplexed by conversations people would have when I was younger about people putting down
roots and this idea that you would be rooted to a place because I never was, was always,
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:every two or three years we would move and I get it now as a 40 something year old bloke
with, I've got an 11 year old and a five year old, we bought this house before either of
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:them were born,
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:Our whole lives are kind of baked in and around this sort of, well, it's like a 10 mile
radius of our house really.
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:And yeah, it's taken all that time to kind of understand that, I suppose.
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:I could talk to you all day about houses and geography because that's just, you know, that
is infinitely interesting.
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:But what I'm really interested in is what goal or resolution do you have and where's that
come from?
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:Well, I think if I'm going to get super kind of business focused here.
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:So at the moment, I'm just about kind of scraping by in terms of what I'm doing, but I've
got quite big ambitions.
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:I want to grow Ace of Place into something bigger than just me.
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:I like the idea of bringing in additional artists.
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:or additional illustrators, maybe on a kind of guest basis or even more permanently.
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:think my vision for Ace of Place in the future is that we can become sort of as the place
to go for a portrait of your home or whatever and that you could land on the Ace of Place
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:website and you might be able to choose, you could pick your artist.
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:And you can look at different kind of styles and go from there.
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:I think there's a few challenges.
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:Obviously the world of AI is something that we're just, every post under the sun is
talking about that at the moment.
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:I don't use any AI at all in what I do.
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:It's all drawn from scratch.
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:I'm really proud of that.
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:I think that's a real point of difference, but I also am
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:can't deny there's a threat, but I think it's understanding that if people want a picture
of their house and they want it as cheap as they can get it, I'm not the place to go.
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:I'm not that person.
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:And I've got to be okay with that, and I am okay with that.
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:But that's big challenge, I suppose, is can I get to a place by this time next year
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:where I'm really, I'm in a serious position that I can look at bringing somebody else on
board.
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:And what I need to do with that, I've been working with a business coach over the last
sort of few months and stuff anyway, so I've got a lot clearer on what my kind of goals
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:and where I need to get to in terms of clients and things like that.
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:I switched my sort of focus.
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:last year or sort of at the start of this year really and turned it much more into a kind
B2B rather than a B2C business.
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:oh
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:shift and what that looks like.
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:I think what I was trying to do is to appeal to kind of people like me, proud homeowners,
people who have completed renovations, people just moving house, these sort of kind of
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:general population.
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:And actually I became much more targeted, tried to target estate agents and mortgage
brokers and property developers and people like that.
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:The theory being that these people...
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:Once you've commissioned me once, once you've got picture of your house, you're not going
to want another one next year or the year after or whatever.
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:know, it's one and done, it?
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:So estate agents are, you know, selling 20, 50, 100 houses a year.
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:Can I find, you know, a core group of estate agents that really get what I do, love, you
know, love property, passionate about what they do too.
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:And can I get them to commit to?
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:I reckon I need to do a roundabout.
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:120 to 150 portraits a year would put me in a really good place.
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:So that's about 12 a month.
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:I'm probably doing about six or seven at the moment.
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:So I guess the big goal for me is to be consistently doing 12 portraits every month by
this time next year.
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:I've got three core clients, people that have come to me.
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:One of them has done 24 portraits with me so far.
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:Another one has done 21 with me so far.
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:And the third one is just on number nine.
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:But I need to get, I'd like to get at least 10 people into that category.
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:I've just invested in a...
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:in a CRM system, which I never thought I would do.
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:actually, I think it's really helped just in the sort of six weeks that I've been using
it.
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:I can track the relationships I've got with them.
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:So whenever I've had a contact with them, I can put data in there.
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:So then...
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:and then I can diarise checking in with them again in the future.
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:and I can categorise them into different kind of prospect types.
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:And my ambition each day is to try and nudge people down that funnel as much as I can
without pushing too hard I think that's the thing that I've learned this year is I'm not,
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:yes, I'm a designer and I'm an illustrator, but actually that's the easy bit of the job.
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:The big part of the job.
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:is the marketing and sales piece that's massive and I think I've drawn something like 400,
500 homes now so I do still sometimes get in my head and think oh well this is just
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:nonsense you're not any good at this Darren no one's buying it no one's commissioned you
this week what are you playing at blah blah blah all the sort of self doubt that every
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:single one of us goes through from time to time
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:Proof of concept is long since proven.
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:I've done this multiple times.
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:I've had people say really wonderful things about what I've done, What the challenge is,
and always has been, is actually getting the eyeballs on it.
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:How do I expose it to enough people to get me to a point where it starts to snowball?
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:So let's roll back.
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:it feels like there are two prongs to your goal.
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:One is growth.
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:And that growth is in a new category.
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:So you switch to B2B.
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:where people are buying repeat products from you.
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:But then the second prong of that growth is expansion.
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:And that expansion is moving to a presumably a consultancy model or associate model where
you've got different designers or illustrators working with your portfolio.
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:So a question that I've got is at what point does the activity of growth
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:what point does that then shift or move into that expansion?
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:Yeah, well that's the million dollar question really.
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:think what Leona, shout out to Leona by the way, joyful selling, if you've ever heard of
her, she's wonderful.
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:She's who I've done a little bit of coaching with over the last few months.
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:I think she's helped me sort of, not uncover, but sort of realise this level of ambition
that I've kind of always had,
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:Probably the last three or four years, I've just been like, anything to survive.
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:I don't really care about doing anything big.
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:I just want to pay the bills kind of thing.
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:So I've kind of, you know, it's kind of reignited that ambition in me
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:So, where do I get to?
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:guess the first challenge is just get to a sustainable place first and that is get to that
consistent 12 commissions a month position which I haven't been in yet and I would like to
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:be in for three months, four months, six months.
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:get to a place where I've got a kind of, you know, a waiting list and I'm booked out and I
know that I can look ahead and I can say, look, for the next three months, I've got this,
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:this, this in the books.
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:I don't need to worry about what I'm working on next week or the week after that.
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:I know I'm already stacked up.
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:I think when I get to that position, that's when I'll think, okay, people are coming to me
and asking me to do work and I'm not able to do it.
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:That's when I've got a different type of problem to solve.
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:I'm not there yet.
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:Can I replay that to you?
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:But be artistic in my license and how I describe it.
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:So I would describe that as I'm going work really, really, hard.
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:And when I can't cope, I'm going to draft in some help.
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:So I want to challenge your belief there that you have to be at a certain capacity to
expand.
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:Is that the belief that you're holding at the moment?
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:Yeah, I think so.
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:I think, again, if it to go back historically, I this is I've worked for myself now for
18, 19 years, a long time.
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:So I've been around the block a bit and I have had these ideas of what I would.
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:The sort of the bad part in my head tells me they're grandiose ideas and that kind of who
do you think you are type of thing.
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:And I think I've well, I have.
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:felt burnt by that in the past.
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:So I'm very sort of protective of my own state of mind to an extent, think, is to not push
too far too quick.
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:Like don't run away with yourself here, Darren.
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:Just deal with the, get your shit together right now before you start thinking about doing
X, Y and Z, because you've got stuff to figure out in the moment, like in the short term.
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:I've started to take things like CRM systems a lot more seriously than I ever have done in
the past because that's what's gonna help me get there.
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:I've got big visions and grandiose ideas but without the systems and the processes and the
structure in place.
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:and I haven't got anybody else who's gonna do that for me.
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:I've got to bite the bullet and be a grownup about it and start doing those things myself.
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:So that's where I am.
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:No, it's really interesting to hear you talk.
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:I'm giving you, hopefully giving you space to just talk it out.
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:I'm quite intrigued by use of the word grandiose and what you've described to me as your
vision.
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:I, you know, certainly I'm not judging that as being grandiose.
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:I'm judging it as being, wow, that sounds really exciting and doable.
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:And everything that you're describing to me sounds that you've put your thought into it.
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:You've done your research.
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:You're working with the right people.
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:You're capitalising on resources that are available to you.
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:And I can hear you reflecting on your experience, those 16, 17 years in recruitment and
running a business and saying, what do I do differently here?
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:how do I do that?
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:But the word of the word grandiose then feels a little bit off.
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:It feels like perhaps you don't quite believe that that you deserve this right now and and
that that is that kind of who do you think you are and
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:I don't know that I've got it completely sussed in terms of how I overcome that.
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:But yeah, mean, that has always been the biggest barrier for me is this idea that um
following through, I've always been someone who's had big ideas and big plans.
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:And I can hear myself doing it now.
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:I've always been this, I've always been that.
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:Doesn't mean I always have to be that thing.
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:So it's sort of having that level of self-awareness and not falling into traps that I have
done in the past.
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:And I think probably the trap that I've fallen into in the past is listening to myself say
that too much and then stepping back and thinking,
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:oh Don't don't try it's not going to it's not going to work What's the point?
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:Go and do X Y or Z instead so getting better at that but still Yeah, still challenges to
to overcome for sure
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:it might be useful to reflect on your previous business but talk to me about
collaboration.
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:How does, or what would collaboration with artists look like for you?
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:It would be really cool to find, someone with a kind of, really kind of similar style of
outlook to me or whatever.
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:I just, I mean, I like to, I like seeing cool work.
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:I like seeing work that I look at and think, God, how would you do that?
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:And I like it to be a bit edgy, a bit contemporary, challenging the sort of status quo.
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:You know, I'm not out here trying to pretend I'm a, mean.
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:I'm not Picasso, know, starting that sort of abstract impressionist movement or anything.
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:I'm just drawing houses.
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:But I try and do it in a way or I'm trying to do it in a way that feels authentic to me.
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:And the idea, what's always appealed to me as a designer, especially, is how can I
communicate
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:something with as fewer strokes of the metaphorical brush as possible.
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:I also think I would really love to do from a more human point of view is I know how
bloody hard it is to get work when you're doing stuff like this.
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:So if Ace of Place can become a platform for artists where someone can show up and like
give them some work without really having to try too hard for it.
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:And I can provide that
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:that opportunity to them, that would be so, that would be super, super rewarding.
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:Go, go do something wonderful there and then do it under, you know, under my umbrella and
that's, you know, that's that.
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:And it strikes me that this is an area that you're...
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:very seasoned and expert in because you ran a recruitment business.
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:So you understand that business model of doing the hard work, putting the time in,
building those client relationships with the B2B and then bringing in the candidates where
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:for them it should be a fairly seamless process, right?
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:you're the perfect person to be thinking about that type of
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:model.
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:Yeah, I think it would be really cool to find some talent out there that might be
undiscovered.
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:I used to work with some really, really high flying people, people on multiple six figures
salaries and things.
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:the satisfaction always came mostly from getting people on that first rung of the ladder,
finding those entry-level roles and that really changing somebody's life and opening up a
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:new world for them.
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:That was where the real joy was.
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:I've not really thought about the kind of parallels with my sort of old world and this
one, but there definitely are in that respect.
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:So there's this idea then of that expansion looking like a curation an aesthetic that is
complimentary to your brand.
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:Yeah.
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:how do you know the type of aesthetic that your existing clients would also be interested
in if you're offering a portfolio
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:I don't know actually.
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:And I think I had a little bit of a kind of epiphany a couple of weeks ago insofar as
this, particularly with the more B2B clients, the estate agents and mortgage brokers and
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:people like that.
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:It dawned on me that they're not really buying the art, I don't think.
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:What I'm doing is I'm solving a problem for them.
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:Either the issue they've got is that there's an expectation for them to leave behind some
kind of completion gift.
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:Probably for their buyer, almost definitely for their seller, because they're the ones
that are paying the fees.
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:Stereotypically, your estate agent might give you a bottle of Prosecco or something like
that.
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:which is great.
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:You drink the Prosecco, you say thank you very much.
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:But six weeks later, you know, it's done and dusted.
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:You forget about it, don't you?
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:What I'm doing is I'm providing them with something that looks and is really, really
thoughtful, properly unique and bespoke, with lots and lots of time and effort that's gone
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:into creating it, that leaves a lasting legacy for them as well.
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:lots of the agents have, you know, little sign-off lines on the bottom of the portraits
sold by...
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:sold by Tim in 2025 or Holly who I've just done one for in Hull has her little sold board
baked into the portrait as well.
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:Some people have their logos kind of watermarked, watermark it in the edges for them.
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:So they're putting, they're literally putting a referral engine into their client's home.
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:And put yourself in an estate agent's shoes.
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:Imagine if all of your client's friends come round.
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:Oh, that's a cool picture.
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:Where did you get that done?
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:my estate agent, Tim gave it to me when we sold our house.
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:bang.
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:And off we go.
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:So.
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:And the agents get to do that with really limited sort of effort on their part.
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:All they have to do is send me their listing.
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:I draw the house.
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:I package it up.
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:I frame it.
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:They give it to their seller.
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:They're buying it because it's solving a problem for them.
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:So in a sense, I don't know that it would matter that much who the artist was.
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:I think they might just go on the site and pick a flavour and say, that one looks nice.
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:different when I'm talking to consumers because I think they do fall in love with your
style and your aesthetic a little bit more.
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:But no, with the business, the business market, I think it's a different framing.
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:Perhaps that's an action to look at different aesthetics and to float those with some of
your current clients and to see how that looks.
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:I think I just want to draw your attention to, this is interesting, because I wrote down,
you said, I'm just drawing houses.
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:But then we took a breath and you went on to say,
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:but I'm solving problems you've given two opposites haven't you I suppose of where you
view this business in your head there is the part of it that's going I'm just drawing
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:houses who do I think I am and then you've got this bit where you know there's a
completely
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:obvious response which is fulfilling a very direct need for the business you're selling it
to but it provides pleasure and belonging to the people who get the gift at the end I
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:would reflect with you that's potentially some of the the thought process when you're
setting your goals is
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:Can you reconcile the differences that you sit with?
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:does that solidify that belief of, I've got to grow before I can expand?
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:just don't know how expanding, how I could.
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:If I wanted to expand any earlier, I couldn't contemplate doing that right now because...
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:What, because in my mind I've got, I'm not ready to do that.
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:Why am I not ready to do that?
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:Well, because I'm not making enough revenue to do that.
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:can't, I'm creating more work for myself when I'm barely able to do the work that I've got
to do already, I suppose.
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:Yeah, there's some exploring to do there, I guess.
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:let's take a further angle.
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:one of the things that you'd said was I'd like to give people a rung on the ladder.
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:I get a sense of satisfaction from that.
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:And that's something that you've experienced in a previous role.
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:But then you'd also talked about giving other artists opportunity.
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:this might be more akin to a narrative that I see with women in business where that
generosity and fairness comes before profit.
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:you're talking about growing the business and being able to give all the people
opportunity, but at the same time, there's a belief that I can't grow until I'm somewhere
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:myself.
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:Which one is the priority?
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:Is it the growth for you or is it the expansion to give other people platform?
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:think the growth for me is the priority.
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:Yeah, I can't put my foot around that.
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:I want to be more established because then I think not just because it gives me more
financial freedom, which is something I'm definitely striving for.
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:it's, I guess it then becomes an authority thing because I think, well,
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:That's probably the piece that's more at play here is how can I go out and show other art
or provide platforms for other artists when I haven't done it to the level I wanted for
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:myself yet.
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:I feel like I need to be in that position on my own before I can open the doors for other
people so I can speak with more authority on it.
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:Does that make sense?
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:let's fast forward.
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:You are at a place where you think, yeah, I've got authority.
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:What things are in place that are giving you all that authority that you're seeking?
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:think it's just going back to what we said before it's that where I've done consistent the
levels of work consistently for however many months I've got an order book that's bursting
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:at the seams is a nice word that springs to mind but you know
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:I think what is liberating in business, and saying no to work, being in a position to say
no to work is a really, I have found that a really liberating place to be
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:I think, if I was literally too busy to take on more stuff, then yeah, like I said, that's
when I know,
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:I have kind of mapped this out a little bit earlier on in the year.
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:it's been a bit of a rollercoaster year really.
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:it started off, with this new focus, things took off.
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:It was a really good summer.
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:We went away for the whole of August.
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:I felt like I managed that really well.
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:I stacked work up, I got the message out months in advance, I'm gonna be away in August,
don't try and reach me in August because I ain't gonna be here.
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:If you want something doing you need to get it booked in.
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:I didn't really look at my emails at all.
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:It was brilliant.
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:When I got back in September, I had a load of work stacked up.
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:It was all great, but I didn't do any pipeline stuff.
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:And then I did all the work and I got to October and it was like tumble.
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:And I'm just about kind of crawling out the other side of that now, but nowhere near where
I thought I...
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:I'm gonna try not to shud myself here, but where I thought I would be at this moment in
time, although things are, things are slowly turning again.
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:oh
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:I wondered is your business seasonal?
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:It's hard to say.
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:Historically, when I was more focused on B2C, then this time of year would be busy.
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:people want Christmas presents.
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:a good Christmas present.
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:But I'm not noticing that so much.
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:the housing market is an interesting place at the moment.
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:I haven't had success with any of the big agents.
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:to even engage in a conversation with me, But there's a huge movement going on in the
state agency at the moment with independent or...
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:freelance agents and they're the ones that get it.
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:I'd like to do is try and tap into one or two of those networks of those likes of EXP or
TA.
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:I haven't managed to break into a kind of big one.
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:It's just been individual agents so far.
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:How do you do that?
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:I have not found the answer to that one yet.
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:I've got lots of social proof.
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:Most of my work up until probably a month ago was almost exclusively across Instagram.
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:all of the good stuff happens in the DMs in Instagram really.
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:I've been able to follow and connect with many, many, many sort of independent agents over
the course of the last sort of 12 months or so.
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:So I will message them there.
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:I have a kind of four step.
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:process, suppose.
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:I DM them on Instagram.
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:I can see whether or not they've read it or not.
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:If they've read it and they respond, that's brilliant, but that doesn't really happen.
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:That maybe happens like one in 10 in the first message.
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:Then I'll send them another message a week or so later.
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:If that one doesn't land, I will switch up my approach a couple of weeks after that, and I
will send them a direct link.
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:to a piece of content that I've done with another agent who I think is similar to them and
say, hey, have a look at this reel, have a look at this portrait I did for this agent,
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:thought you might like it, gives you a little bit of an insight into what I do.
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:I've been switching to trying to find them on LinkedIn, which was a platform I avoided
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:It's constant kind of motivational speech and bigging up of one another and that's not my
vibe at all.
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:That being said, a lot of agents hang out there.
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:It is a space they spend time.
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:And actually having gone back there for the first time in sort of two or three years,
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:He's not quite as bad as it used to be,
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:When you're reaching out to these agents, your step process presumably is looking for,
that of them as a client.
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:What would happen if you're reaching out to them was more research-based in terms of, can
I ask you a question, know them, where they hang out?
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:Yeah, mean, that's an interesting, yeah, that would be a different take.
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:that's what I'm trying to.
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:do to an extent at the moment is to just switch up the approach from time to time.
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:this whole idea of outreach is kind of what is sort of traditional kind of sales outreach
stuff was like really alien to me a year ago.
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:It's not something I had to do at all.
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:in 16 years of running my recruitment business, it was all word of mouth.
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:I never had to do any real sales.
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:It's worked with the individual agents, but breaking into those bigger pieces, the whole
networks or the...
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:the sort of larger high street agent types of people have not figured out the code for
that one yet.
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:So.
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:there's two things here, isn't there?
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:One, you have developed a new way of networking and lead generation and chasing.
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:That's great.
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:And like you say, that's working for you to a point.
340
:So what can you take from your previous experience with that word of mouth stuff?
341
:What were you really good at?
342
:I've been much better this year at sort of keeping up to date across the socials and being
present there to try and encourage people to come to me rather than me having to go out to
343
:get them.
344
:I had a somewhat scarring conversation early on in the year with the founder of one of
these networks, which is still lives in my head, Rent Free Now.
345
:even though I've tried my best to coach myself out of it.
346
:it was someone I could add real value to what they do.
347
:I messaged her, she messaged me back.
348
:She was really interested.
349
:We got to setting a call in the diary.
350
:The call didn't happen,
351
:I didn't want to leave it there obviously, I wanted to kind of make it feel as though,
that's cool, don't worry, you know, come back whenever you're ready and try to sort of
352
:play it down.
353
:Wasn't getting anywhere with any sort of subsequent messages.
354
:She had a mobile phone on her contact, so I thought, right, I'm just gonna ring a number,
like, that's the old fashioned way.
355
:When I first started working.
356
:I'm just going to ring her and say, I know it's a cheeky, but anyway, I rang her, went
terribly.
357
:She told me she, she more or less put the phone down on me straight away, said she felt
like she was being pestered.
358
:And was, that was the sort of end of that really.
359
:That was a year ago actually,
360
:She's in my ecosystem.
361
:a founder of one of these networks.
362
:even though I'm not kind of following her directly, she's coming up in all of these other
people's feeds and posts I see.
363
:So I reach back out to her again a couple of weeks ago to sort of build bridges and just
say, look, I know I maybe came on a bit.
364
:too strong or I can't remember exactly how I worded it but I spent ages figuring out what
I was going to say to her and she's read these messages but she's not responded to me
365
:which is fine but it's a long game of just sort of proving that I'm here to stay and my
intentions are honourable, is that the right phrase?
366
:I do think there's a real tightrope you've got to walk with letting people know that
you're out there and what you do and that you love what you do and you're really good at
367
:it but you can't say it too much and too loud and too often because that then becomes
really off-putting so to, pardon, to them like it's a real
368
:You know, when somebody comes on too strong, will you give it a rest kind of thing?
369
:Like, it's whole idea, giving people enough space, but not too much space.
370
:And that kind of push and pull, isn't it?
371
:Hey, I'm here, I'm doing cool stuff, you might be interested.
372
:and then give them the space to come to you, but if they don't, when they go or they get
distracted by something else, it's just a little, you know, tap on the shoulder, by the
373
:way, I'm still here, but don't keep on doing that because eventually, will you please stop
tapping me on the shoulder?
374
:I know you're there, just leave me alone.
375
:folk are quite good, aren't they, at unsubscribing from stuff and muting and un following?
376
:I think I've got it in my head that she thinks I'm this awful human being She probably
doesn't even give me a second thought she's living rent free in my head and I'm building
377
:this picture of what she thinks of me.
378
:I know rationally and on intellectual level, I know it's complete nonsense.
379
:It's all fabrication.
380
:how do you rewrite that narrative in your head?
381
:Because the story that you're telling me is the narrative that you're telling yourself.
382
:attempt last week or the week before is to try and press that reset button on this and
rewrite the narrative.
383
:And I've worked with two of her really, really high flying agents.
384
:I did a really of work with them.
385
:And I was like, right, I'm going to show her this and she'll, she knows I work with these
two guys under her umbrella and they like, can trust me and all of that stuff.
386
:then that's a big flag that says, actually, this guy must be all right.
387
:He's not that
388
:you want this person to appreciate you and you're not comfortable with leaving it with the
idea that they don't like your work and your approach.
389
:it's not about the work.
390
:It's about me, I think.
391
:it feels like...
392
:I feel like she could be a real door opener.
393
:I think if I could get her on board, it would change the face of my business almost
overnight because they've two or 300 agents.
394
:I'm working with probably about half a dozen of them already.
395
:I've done good work with people in her circle.
396
:What makes this individual the most important individual in this network?
397
:she's the founder So in head, if she goes to their board meeting or whatever and says,
look, I've got this guy Darren, he's done work with these agents under our umbrella
398
:already.
399
:Yeah, he's doing really good stuff.
400
:They love what he does.
401
:Let's offer this out to our network.
402
:Let's get him to my dream, I think, not my dream.
403
:I know whether I would do this, I would do it really nervously, but they have an annual
conference once a year.
404
:Let's get Darren to the annual conference, give him a little stand there, show him all the
portraits he's done for our agents in our network already.
405
:then all of a sudden I've got this huge kind of, this huge opportunity in front of us.
406
:Darren, so this conference does this conference happen every year?
407
:Okay.
408
:it's definite, but I could do some more digging.
409
:But this is the kind of idea that's twirling around in my head.
410
:Get that event, get in front of all of those.
411
:Chasing the conference rather than the person probably sounds more productive at this
point in time, yeah?
412
:like the in my head.
413
:I've made her the gatekeeper to that that may or may not be true, I suppose.
414
:I mean, you know, there's a whole world of psychology that could explain why two people do
or do not hit it off You don't know what day that person was having when your phone call
415
:And it was really interesting using words like, I was a bit cheeky and I'm thinking, well,
no, because you'd agreed to have a meeting
416
:you were just following up.
417
:the narrative to me is you reached out to somebody, you agreed to have a conversation,
that conversation didn't happen, you reached back out to say can we have the conversation,
418
:they went I wasn't expecting it this way and that's not about you, that's about them and
where they were.
419
:So I think that retelling of the narrative is quite important for your goal journey
because
420
:if that sitting rent free in your head that is going to potentially hold you back from
getting into this network because as you said you've made this person into a gatekeeper so
421
:I think just you know
422
:closing that story off, making a new narrative of I reached out to somebody, wasn't the
right time for her, doesn't mean that I'm not right for that network, doesn't mean that
423
:I'm not right to be at their conference, doesn't mean that I haven't got a space there,
and actually I've got social proof because I've worked with agents in that network.
424
:Yeah.
425
:your goal has the two parts.
426
:You've got the goal of growing and the goal of growing is increasing that B2B.
427
:And one of the ways to increase the B2B is you want to get into this network.
428
:So we're getting really specific on this goal now.
429
:So a very specific goal to get into the network.
430
:Yeah, it feels like a long way off, but it could just be one conversation, couldn't it?
431
:So.
432
:could be or it could be many conversations.
433
:How would you feel if you, I don't know, in the new year you have conversation with
somebody about this, not the person you've already spoken to and it feels like another
434
:closed door, how would that feel?
435
:Yeah, I think it would probably...
436
:I can tell what I would say in my own head now.
437
:Yeah, I told you.
438
:I wasn't going to work.
439
:Can we give you permission to tell yourself that you can fail 10 times with something?
440
:yeah.
441
:And again, I'll get back to what I thought.
442
:I can do all this in my own head.
443
:I can rationalise all.
444
:On an intellectual level, I understand all of this stuff.
445
:It's, yeah, maybe it's the saying out loud, I suppose.
446
:It's verbalizing these things.
447
:Maybe I need to do a bit more of that, I guess.
448
:I need some, I need to work on how I turn that intellectual knowledge into actual thoughts
and feelings.
449
:Does that make sense?
450
:It does.
451
:I'm really excited to follow your journey because I think talking it through is possibly
the thing that you need.
452
:you've got a really solid idea about where you are, where you want to go, you're very
certain and determined about certain aspects of this, know, growing is the priority, not
453
:the expansion.
454
:You've got an idea of who you might work with, you know, you've niched or you are niching
specific industry and so you're right at this point of you know what it is that you want
455
:to do next, this goal is so real
456
:and visual to me.
457
:that's the biggest achievement of the year so far really is that I think on January 1st,
still, knew that like I was drawing nice houses and people liked them, but I didn't
458
:really, I don't think I knew with any certainty who my audience was or what I wanted to do
with it, where I wanted to go.
459
:I just wanted to do as many of them as I could.
460
:And I would just sort of throw it all out there and know, hope something bit.
461
:I think.
462
:That is the big success story of this year so far.
463
:I haven't made a fortune.
464
:And it's not, I come back to that because it is about that to an extent.
465
:don't wanna make, well, I wanna make as much money as I can do, but it's not about that.
466
:I wanna get a foundation in place so I don't feel like I'm chasing my tail all the time.
467
:So the financial thing, I'm not.
468
:I try and say I'm ignoring it, but I'm not.
469
:I can't get away from measuring my success by what my bank balance looks like and it
doesn't look I'm in a really fortunate position.
470
:My wife is a, you she's the breadwinner of the house.
471
:She looks after us all.
472
:I do a lot of the picking up of the pieces of the childcare and all of that type of stuff.
473
:there's all this kind of, I mean, we'll get really, we can get really into the weeds here
with the patriarchy and all of that kind stuff.
474
:that is a big part of the sort of self-talk at the moment is.
475
:step up, get your act together, start providing.
476
:Yeah, I mean, even saying it out I think it's an interesting one.
477
:again,
478
:My podcasts generally talk about that women's view and that women's lived experience and
so I'm so excited to have men on the podcast.
479
:is it like the other way around, I suppose, most of time?
480
:You know, being feminist and noticing feminist practice doesn't mean that men have it easy
at all.
481
:And we know that, you know, men have a really hard time and the very same practices and
systems and structures that trip women up, trip
482
:if we're to go into all of that, what goes on in my head is it's like, well, I can do all
of that.
483
:I can beat myself up about that and get all kind of riled up.
484
:But then you're like, well, look at you.
485
:You're a white middle-aged bloke with all of, you know, so privileged, so much, you know,
so much going for me that I don't have to.
486
:kind of work for.
487
:So many privileges granted to me.
488
:What the hell are you whinging about?
489
:So I'm not whinging about that really, but...
490
:Well, yes, I am.
491
:Clearly I am.
492
:I think what you're saying is what's important to you and I What's important to you is to
be profitable and grow.
493
:is proving to myself, proving to myself first, but proving to the outside world that what
I'm doing here actually is working.
494
:It really, it's legitimate and it's not a play thing.
495
:I'm not a hobbyist here.
496
:I've got a business and it works.
497
:That's the big thing.
498
:I'm not, you know...
499
:little Darren just drawing houses in his back garden.
500
:I am, totally am that, but you know, it's a real proper business.
501
:You are that and you are doing the other stuff, which is the real value that's bringing to
your B2B customers.
502
:And proving that your work is legitimate, know, part of that goal that we're exploring is,
you know, how do you get yourself into that network in that place where legitimacy is
503
:then, that feels like it's a marker for you of legitimacy in some sense.
504
:For sure, yeah.
505
:with most goals we talk about, time scales, actions.
506
:You're already on the path on the sales stuff and your leads and your CRM.
507
:So you've started some of this goal already, do you want to start properly now or in
January?
508
:Well, we're in it now, aren't we?
509
:I've never been one that's really ever subscribed to New Year's resolutions, if I'm
honest.
510
:if I say we would catch up in four weeks and it'll be via email rather than a recorded
conversation, but if I say, right, these were the three things that you were looking at
511
:and focused on for your goal in four weeks time, what three things are coming to mind as
goal actions as a result of this conversation for you?
512
:Okay, well, I guess first of all, establish whether or not this conference that I've
conjured up in my mind actually So I know that there's another network of agents, EXP,
513
:that you might have heard of.
514
:They definitely do have a conference because I've seen it happened in Miami last week, I
think.
515
:um So they're a big global network uh of agents.
516
:Can I find out when it is and where it is?
517
:And then I can build a plan towards that.
518
:That feels like something that's
519
:I'd like to get at least in the next four weeks at least one new one new client on board
in terms of one one Commission with somebody I've never worked with before I've got a few
520
:that are kind of in the mix They've been sort of dangling.
521
:that would be that would be good goal
522
:I've also got, I've got two of my clients at the moment who have come, I've been, I made a
switch back in sort of June, or sort of tried to create a new offer and it was bundle
523
:packages.
524
:Try and iron out the, again, the peaks and troughs.
525
:So buy, you know, five or 10 or 20 portraits off me in a package, you get 12 months to use
them.
526
:Alright.
527
:And then, so I managed to sell two of those.
528
:I would like to get one of them to buy another one.
529
:I think that's a good achievable goal.
530
:and a third one.
531
:I don't know if you've got any ideas on what a good third one would be off the back of our
conversation.
532
:My reflection on this is that a lot of this is on your shoulders, is I've got to do this,
I'm doing this on my own.
533
:And a lot of founders and business owners are exactly the same.
534
:And I wonder, I know that you're not there yet in terms of collaboration and you want to
grow first, but reaching out to a similar type of artist with an aesthetic to even have a
535
:exploratory conversation might be a way of building
536
:community or at least starting that in your goal.
537
:You don't have to sign anybody up, you don't have to work with them, you don't have to
share work,
538
:probably over last two or three months.
539
:I've been just kind of bookmarking posts and from different artists that have popped up in
my feed and thinking, I've got something to refer back to when I'm ready.
540
:So I'm trying to do a little bit of groundwork as far as that type of thing is concerned.
541
:Yeah, but maybe I could
542
:try and speak to one of those.
543
:That might be an action I suppose is got already and see if there's someone there that
kind of stands out and might be worth dropping a message to.
544
:So when I email you in four weeks time, I'll be saying, Darren, we had a great
conversation.
545
:You're fascinating.
546
:Really excited about where you're already going.
547
:But what did you find out about the conference?
548
:How did your current sales pipeline unfold?
549
:Anything interesting there?
550
:And who have you reached out to as a fellow artist?
551
:Does that sound?
552
:That sounds good, yeah.
553
:It has been fascinating talking to you.
554
:You're so interesting and I think your experience in business definitely shows in terms of
how you've approached this.
555
:And there's certainly a lot that think listeners will take from this, how focused you are.
556
:Is there anything that you'd like to add?
557
:Yeah.
558
:No, I don't think so.
559
:think I was conscious that I didn't want to be so self-aware as it getting recorded and
because it will be so cringy to listen back to.
560
:But I definitely switched off that in my head.
561
:So yeah, it all came out.
562
:So thank you.
563
:You asked really interesting questions and I'm interested to listen to a few more of the
podcast as well and see what other people came up with.
564
:it'll be fascinating to see where it goes.
565
:want to pair you up with maybe one or two of my other guests.
566
:So what I'll do is I'll get you to listen to their episodes and then you'll come together
and we'll have a group discussion and I was hoping that between you, you could give each
567
:other support on your goals.
568
:support group.
569
:Yeah
570
:Thank you for being so open with me.
571
:And I know I asked lots of questions yeah.
572
:Yeah.
573
:was really, really cool conversation.
574
:I
