Leopard Logic: Katie Cope on Brand Identity
In this episode of Psychologically Speaking, host Leila Ainge sits down with Katie Cope, founder of Keppel Leopard Creative, to explore the intricate world of brand identity, storytelling, and the challenges faced by female entrepreneurs. Katie shares her journey from redundancy to building a branding agency that empowers women to embrace their authentic selves in business.
The conversation dives into the psychology behind branding, the pressures women face in professional spaces, and how societal norms influence personal and business identities. Katie also reflects on her multicultural background, her unexpected career path through animation and TV production, and how creative problem-solving has shaped her approach to branding.
Key topics include:
- The power of brand storytelling and personal identity.
- Challenges women entrepreneurs face in professional branding.
- The balance between authenticity and professionalism in online spaces.
- How Katie’s diverse cultural and career experiences inform her work.
This episode is packed with insights on confidence, personal branding, and the psychological barriers that shape how we present ourselves to the world.
Transcript
next bit is if you take it apart so I'd watch for that because there's little bits inside
it and then it would be like yeah.
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:the set that Dave bought him has got different coloured strings that he can put on and all
of these bits.
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:it.
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:You've got to take it all apart to put the strings on properly.
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:So yeah, that that will be the next thing is like, comes apart.
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:Brand new yo-yo every week.
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:I love it, I love it.
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:Okie dokie, so I've hit the record button already.
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:This is dead relaxed.
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:So what I would say is just allow yourself pauses.
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:It's easier to edit afterwards if there's natural pauses anyway.
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:It's not like a radio interview where I've got to keep going and keep the excitement up
and the tone of the podcast is very much more reflective anyway.
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:So, you know, it's all good.
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:I'll do an intro, but then I'll ask you to intro yourself as well, so that we capture your
brand and personality, which is what this is all about.
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:And then we'll roughly stick to what we've already discussed.
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:Yeah.
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:And then at the end of it, there should be 30 minutes of really good conversation.
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:I've got some water because I keep losing my voice, so I might have to take some sips.
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:worry, do not worry about that.
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:So, all good.
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:wonderful.
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:Today I'm joined by Katie Cope, is founder of Keppel Leopard Creative, a strategic
business and personal brand.
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:hang on a minute.
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:Yeah, it's strategic business and personal brand identity for passionate female founders,
isn't it?
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:Yeah, okay, right, okay.
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:Today I'm joined by Katie Cope, founder of Keppel Leopard Creative, strategic business and
personal brand identities for passionate female founders.
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:Welcome to Psychologically Speaking, Katie.
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:Hi.
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:It is great to have you here.
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:Would you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
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:Yeah, so as you said, I run a branding agency and the branding agency specializes in brand
identities, brand strategy and design for female entrepreneurs.
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:And normally these female entrepreneurs are super ambitious.
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:They want global domination.
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:They want to create impact.
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:They want change.
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:And those are the kind of female founders that we work with.
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:So we specialize in brand identities because brand identities for female founders
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:has to do a lot more than male founders.
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:We've got to represent ourselves quite well.
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:So the business started in 2019 and I was actually made redundant from my full-time job
whilst I was seven months pregnant.
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:So I had like two sensible options.
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:We say that it's sensible options.
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:The first sensible option was to go and find another job in which ultimately at seven
months pregnant, working in the events industry, that probably wasn't going to happen.
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:Or the other sensible idea was I would just crawl into bed and hide and just wait for it
all to blow over.
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:And then I had this very third wild card option of maybe start a business and see what
happens.
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:And that's how it started.
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:So literally on the Monday, I was made redundant by the Friday.
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:I'd set up a business offering graphic design.
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:And then over the years between sort of newborns homeschooling pandemic.
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:anything that can be checked out it it's evolved into the branding agency that is today.
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:Wow, what an amazing story.
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:And 2019 resonates.
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:That was the year that I set up my business as well.
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:So we've both went through those early years in the pandemic, lockdown.
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:I think our children are similar ages as well.
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:Homeschooling.
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:of them.
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:yeah, homeschooling was horrendous.
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:It didn't happen.
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:It was one of those where I started very, very keenly with like, we've got a timetable,
we're good to go.
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:By the end of the first week, was like, it's just, we're just going to throw everything at
it.
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:It's fine.
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:If you learn, amazing.
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:That's how it went.
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:we had an alternative provision definitely we had an alternative provision
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:yeah, it was very much alternative.
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:Potentially you couldn't say what he learned, but hopefully he's fine now.
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:So, we should be all good.
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:think we should maybe start here.
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:And the idea that you're somebody who looks at a problem or a challenge or world
domination, I love that phrase, with creativity.
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:And I'd love to talk about this, especially your dressmaking skills, because this might
sound a bit bizarre, but the first time we met, you'd rocked up to a speaking event in a
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:bespoke.
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:handmade skirt that I think you'd made what the night before?
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:It was the week before it was due in which what was really hilarious is because I've got
ADHD, I have these wonderful ideas months in advance.
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:And I knew about this speaking gig, which was doing it for the kids with Frankie.
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:She had told me a while back that this was happening.
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:But the week before I suddenly went, yeah, let's make a skirt now.
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:So that's what I did.
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:was just like, I should probably get this done.
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:And then I was like, you know what, we'll hold ourselves accountable and tell everybody
that's going to be there.
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:By the way, I'm making my own skirt.
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:been really excited on the lead up.
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:mean you've done something really wonderful there which is to just kind of gave us all a
bit of a sense of anticipation about what we might expect.
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:I think we're all just like wow she's going to make her own skirt for the talk.
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:yeah, hilariously, like I've never I've never made a skirt before in my life I've never
made one being doing some like YouTube googly I do watch like, you know, I'm sewing being
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:things and going it's can't be that hard.
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:Can it?
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:So, yeah, I am that kind of person that will kind of go.
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:Yeah, we can do that.
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:So I've done it before where like
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:years and years ago my friend had a birthday and I was like I have no idea what to buy
her.
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:I was just like you know what I'll knit her a scarf that's amazing we'll knit her a scarf.
93
:I'd never knitted before in my life but I managed to do it I mean like it was very long
because I didn't know how to finish it but eventually I managed to kind of like put
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:something together and make it but I am very much that kind of person where if there's a
problem or something I'm like
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:what if we do it this way?
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:And I am very much one of those who's like, we'll just try it until there's like,
literally, there's no other way of doing it.
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:And they're like, there is a barrier, we cannot move past that barrier.
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:And even then, usually, even if there's a barrier there, then I'll be like, we'll just
leave it for a bit, and then we'll go back to it.
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:It's absolutely fine.
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:So yeah, I have always had that kind of, that thing of like, well, why don't we do it this
way?
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:I think I took a photo of you on the stage that day.
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:So with your permission, I think I will put that photo into the show notes and also the
blog because I do a sub step blog for this podcast.
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:But it was fabulous.
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:Absolutely fabulous.
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:Well, I loved that.
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:I loved meeting you and I loved your talk on the day and you were talking about brands and
we connected again in January, didn't you?
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:You'd message me and we were talking about...
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:how was interesting that as a brand agency, you were starting to explore your own brand.
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:And a really interesting thing that I didn't know about you was your background in
animation.
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:Yeah, yeah, so I have an animation degree.
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:So I have a background in animation.
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:So I went to I went to the same university as Nick Park.
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:So all of those Wallace and Gromit fans, I went to the same one.
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:My my tutor is Miss Rabbit from Peppa Pig.
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:She was my tutor.
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:So yes, I grew up in animation.
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:So yeah, so and that was sort of like a that was a weird and wonderful thing as well
because
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:I ultimately, I went into, so I used to live in Scotland and we did six form school rather
than going to college.
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:And it was one of those things where I was like, I actually don't know what I want to do
with my, the rest of my life, because that's what happens is that you hit that time and
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:it's like, right, so what are you going to do for the rest of your life?
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:I like, I don't know what I'm going to do.
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:So I tried going for just kind of general art and sort of like, let's go for your general
art.
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:I'm creative.
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:We'll see what happens.
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:So I went for.
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:one of the biggest universities for art in up in Scotland, which was Edinburgh School of
Art.
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:And I just wasn't, I'm not that kind of way inclined of thinking kind of creatively
artistically that kind of, that kind of mindset, because I remember one of the questions
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:that they asked me, in which I realized that the answer that I gave wasn't the correct
one.
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:Was they said, they like looked at my portfolio and they said, right.
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:if we stacked chairs and tables up in the corner, how would you start drawing it?
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:In which I think what they were looking for was some sort of really artistic, creative
sort of answer.
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:But my answer was I'd start from the bottom and work up, which I don't think was exactly.
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:was just like, well, we'd start from the bottom and you draw it.
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:then and I don't think that's what they were looking for.
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:Do think perhaps they were looking for an interpretation?
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:Exactly, I'm pretty sure that's what they were doing, but I am not that kind of, I'm not
that way in kind at all to kind of look at it in that way.
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:So it then actually got to the stage because through UCAS and things, you have like
certain ways of doing things.
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:And if you're going down the art route, there's two different routes.
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:There's like route A and route B.
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:So I was going down route B and they said like, actually, cause I was getting to the end
of route B and going, I haven't got a university yet.
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:They said you can go down route A if you've done route B, you can go down route A and then
I'd looked at the animation degree at the University of Central Lancashire and I'd kind of
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:dismissed it because I was like, I don't know anything about animation.
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:I have not done animation at all.
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:But I liked it.
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:I watched lots of cartoons.
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:I liked how they made it, how they created it.
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:And then I was just like, you know what, why not?
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:Why not go for it?
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:So I went down.
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:had an interview with them, had an interview, showed them my portfolio and everything.
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:And it actually, in which it actually became one of my animations, it was between two
school, two universities, because the other thing that I was interested in was acting.
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:So I had a choice between going to the University of Central Lancashire or I had a choice
of going to, I think it was York, it was York University or York St.
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:John's to do acting.
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:and study acting.
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:And I remember going, I cannot decide in which my mother's gonna kill me because she
doesn't know this.
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:I used a deck of cards to choose how to, between the two of them.
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:And the thing was, that I was just like red for, red for you clan because Lancashire and
then black for York St.
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:John's.
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:And I actually picked up a black card and I went, I don't wanna go.
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:So then I chose animation.
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:That's how I did my animation degree.
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:So yeah, was like an entire story of that as well.
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:really sensible kind of way of working out choices, isn't it?
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:And sometimes do that with, in work situations with clients where you often say, okay, so
let's choose this one, or you give them something part written and then all of a sudden
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:they start red penning it and you're like, so now I really know what you want.
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:Yeah, exactly.
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:Exactly.
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:You give them an and I do that with my clients quite a lot as well is that I give them an
option and see how it sits and they have to go, actually, no.
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:And I'm like, that's what I wanted because I knew eventually like, that's actually not
what you want, but I need to give you the option to go, no, I don't like it.
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:Exactly.
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:Exactly.
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:And that's what I do with, with my, with my clients is effectively we're narrowing down
the scope because you in business, you can do anything you want.
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:I think that's one of the biggest things that
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:I sort of learned as I became an entrepreneur is you can do anything you want.
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:You can sell whatever you want.
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:can price it, whatever you want.
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:But that's really overwhelming because you suddenly go from, especially if you're from
employment where you've been told like, this is how it is.
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:This is how you write it.
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:This is what it should sound like.
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:This is the process that we do.
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:There's a lot of restrictions in that to go from that to now you can do everything, but
it's also on your head as well is quite overwhelming.
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:So yeah, so with my
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:with my work, I help them sort of narrow the focus down a bit and go, well, we kind of do
either or.
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:So then it helps sort of get that focus in place and to get that brand in place so that we
know.
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:So, yes.
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:I love that, I really, really love that.
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:I'm really intrigued in the idea of brand identity and women entrepreneurs.
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:A lot of my research has focused in on how women represent themselves in online spaces and
certainly how their brands comes out.
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:And this idea of in psychology, we talk about an idealized self being different to our
actual self.
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:And the reason that there are differences are
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:Usually in our roles in life, perhaps we're not quite acting or fulfilling what we think
our potential is.
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:So it's interesting how you were weighing up your potential as a younger you and then, and
how you went through that decision and how you've evolved into where you are.
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:But I wonder, what's your reflection then sitting, you're having these day-to-day
conversations with women founders.
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:How does that conflict between who they really are and what they want to put out?
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:How does that show up?
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:Yes, I think quite a lot of female entrepreneurs, the biggest thing that they want to do
is they want to show that they're professionals, which every single one I've worked with,
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:they are professional in what they do.
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:They want to show that they're experts.
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:100 % they're all experts in what they do.
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:The biggest thing that I find is that societal pressure in the fact that we don't see
female entrepreneurs and we don't see females that run businesses or females that lead
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:businesses.
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:in those positions because it is very unlikely that we do see them.
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:It's still nowadays that you don't see a lot of CEOs that are females, don't see many
females in managerial roles or directorship roles.
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:So there's this societal stigma.
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:So even though they're trying to get to, I want to be professional, I want to be expert,
it's working it out in a way that shows them that, but also not losing who they are
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:because I think quite often,
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:women will start changing themselves.
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:see it quite often in sort of directorship roles is that they start turning a little bit
more into a man and they start talking like a man and they start, they start doing all of
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:these different things, which is more of a male mannerisms in order for them to stand out.
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:And a lot of the time, the female entrepreneurs that I work with, they don't want to do
that.
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:They want to do it in their own way because they know that eventually at some point there
is going to be an issue in that in terms of,
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:they're going to realize that this is not them.
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:But then they're kind of a bit too far into it to change the way that they are.
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:They can't just kind of slowly sort of go out of it.
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:It's kind of like we've been watching the traitors over the last few weeks.
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:Well, who hasn't exactly?
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:And it's kind of like one of the traitors, Charlotte, she started with a Welsh accent and
then you could slowly hear it sort of kind of.
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:fading out as it went along because it's just like you cannot keep this Welsh accent up
and it's that same kind of feeling in in terms of women feel like we're putting something
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:on and I think that's also where it kind of comes in where they suddenly start feeling
very overwhelmed they start feeling like I'm not good enough at what I do they get all of
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:that kind of anxiety whereas for how I do my branding and things is that we're actually
looking at the things that they're really really good at and we're pulling that out
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:and we're doing it really naturally.
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:So they're not making anything up.
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:So if somebody says that's fake, that you're making it up, they kind of go, well, it's not
because they know that it definitely isn't because that's the work that we've done.
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:So they can stand on their own two feet and they can put themselves out there as
themselves, but they're confident about it.
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:And they know that a hundred percent it's true.
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:And that's what ultimately we do.
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:There is so much to unpack in what you've just said there.
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:I mean, the thing that comes to mind as a psychologist here is that idea of what we're
calling a feminist sensibility.
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:And this idea that women self-help is definitely focused towards women more than it is
men.
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:So how to be more of this in the boardroom, how to be more of this professional woman.
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:And what we've seen over the years, and there's quite a few psychologists who've spoken
and written about this, is this highly individualized ideal self and this projection of a
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:woman having to work on themselves and be better.
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:And we see that this is happening at the exclusion of being just ourselves and being
social and all of the others.
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:Yeah, definitely.
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:And I see it a lot as well, because I do like, there is a lot of things, because obviously
when it comes through your socials and things, it's targeted at you.
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:And a lot of the stuff is targeted towards women in terms of female entrepreneurship.
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:How you should be a leader is aimed at women.
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:How you should beat imposter syndrome.
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:Again, it's not, it's all aimed at women.
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:Nothing is very rarely aimed at men.
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:And I've noticed that.
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:a lot in terms of articles.
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:It's all to do with women having to improve themselves or change themselves or really be
aware of who they are and their surroundings and what they're doing rather than sort of
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:go, well, hang on a minute.
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:If this is what's happening, why can't we change the room?
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:That's probably the better way is like, why don't we make it more, more inclusive and more
that way?
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:Yeah.
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:to the heart of the research around imposter and it being a phenomenon that it is
contextual and it's about the spaces that we are in and put in.
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:I think there's something really interesting though that's happening in these online
spaces.
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:So like you say, initially, I see this as a journey of entrepreneurship that women in
particular are going through where initially there's this desire to be very professional,
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:to not get caught out.
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:Mmm.
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:and to be able to prove their worth and their social standing.
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:And then something interesting happens.
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:There's this confidence thing that might happen to some women where they become very
comfortable and confident and perhaps maybe some guard is let down and we see more of who
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:they are.
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:There's also a different trajectory that I'm seeing a lot more of on LinkedIn.
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:And this does tend to be coming through from women who, I suppose, where inequity shows up
more.
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:So where things aren't easy.
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:So where, for example, there's ADHD or there's childcare challenges, et cetera, where
people use those online spaces almost as a detox and they're using it to post and say,
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:Right, I'm going to forget this facade of being perfect and being professional.
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:You're getting me warts and all because this is who I am.
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:There's something there, isn't there, about the fact that women have to manage all of
these different social identities in different spaces and just how exhausted that feels
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:actually.
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:Yeah, it is.
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:And I think it is really exhausting when you think about it in terms of the different
places and stuff.
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:Because I used to, when I worked, when I was in full time employment, I worked in
corporate.
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:And I was talking to somebody the other day about corporate.
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:And she didn't realize that when you write emails, there's a certain underlying thing that
when you write emails, I was like, did you not know about the regards, kind regards and
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:many thanks.
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:And she's just like, what do you mean?
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:I was just like, right.
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:Well, when you write kindest regards, it probably means that you've done something wrong
and you're trying to get somebody to help you out.
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:Regards is I'm not happy with you, which is why I haven't put kind regards.
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:Regards is I'm not happy.
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:Many thanks is because you want somebody to do something, but you haven't actually asked
them yet.
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:This is your FYI to them.
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:So you go many thanks because now you've kind of pretty much passed the buck on them.
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:So yeah, so because I used to work in corporate and I used to write a lot of emails
because I was in admin.
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:these are the kind of things that would happen and you would notice and you could tell
from somebody's tone.
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:Especially when somebody goes, as I said in a previous email, it's like, so yeah.
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:So there's all these different kinds of societal sort of ways of speaking, ways of
communicating and things.
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:And for females as well, they've got to learn all of these different ways.
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:I was talking to somebody the other day because I went to a networking event and she said
that she went to pretty much an
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:a male dominated industry event.
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:But that's where all her clients were.
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:Her clients are males pretty much.
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:And she said she felt so uncomfortable being there because they all knew each other and
they all talk the same.
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:They all have the same jargon and she just wasn't, she just couldn't fit in anyway.
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:It wasn't like she could kind of slot in and sort of go, hi, how are you?
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:But men don't pick up on that.
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:Men just will just walk up.
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:And it was something that I noticed at a networking event and it was a mixed networking
event.
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:is that the women very much will stand there, they will, how they strike up a conversation
is usually about the weather, is normally a big thing in Manchester is, look at the
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:weather, it's snowing.
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:It's raining, exactly, it's raining, snowing, any kind of weather related incident, that,
Pennine related, either that or they will talk about the queue for a cup of tea, that's
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:normally quite, you'd meet people in there.
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:or the queue for the bathroom, because for women, super long.
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:So normally there's a conversation about the bathroom and that's how they start talking.
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:And they only talk about business when they are invited to talk about business.
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:Whereas men on the other hand, will just quite happily go up to people, go, Hey, what's
your name practicality?
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:So what business do you do?
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:Let's switch cards if they think it's amicable and they can help each other.
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:And then they move on.
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:There's none of this sort of
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:standing around and sort of waiting for the conversation to end to move on and it was
really interesting watching how women and men sort of interact in these different circles
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:and it's all to do with the fact that women can feel it, they can feel the emotions, they
can feel how the difference is and I think that's because we've learnt it, we've learnt to
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:sort of read the room and men don't really seem to need to massively notice especially if
they've got a focus and they're like well I need to go network and I need to go and swap
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:cards and stuff.
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:just go off and do it, whereas women are like, we're a bit more hesitant and we need to
read the room first, so...
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:if there are a couple of things psychologically going on there.
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:obviously, potentially individuals who enter a room, look at the social cues and think,
will follow that social cue and fit into the norm.
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:There are people who enter the social space and they are not the norm and then feel like
an outsider and in psychology, that social identity, that angry park rooms.
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:out group, can feel very pronounced to the person who's in the out group, whereas it might
not feel that pronounced to the person in the in group.
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:And, you know, perhaps there's something there which is that it's not all men.
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:It's about, you know, how comfortable and how social conditioning has made us feel in
those situations.
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:But certainly I had a little chuckle there because I was chatting to another Doing It For
The Kids member last week, Laura Howard.
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:And we were both talking about networking events.
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:think Laura goes to a lot more than I do.
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:I do self-select not to.
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:And mostly because in Derbyshire, the ones that I have gone to, people just come up and
try and sell to me.
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:And I want to get there to know people, not to know their product.
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:And that for me tends to be a bit of a self-selection thing, which is quite interesting,
which is why.
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:I find brands so interesting because brands seems to be like that fusion between the
person and the product.
325
:So given everything we're saying there about, you know, potential barriers, challenges,
feminism, stereotypes, what kind of advice are you giving clients around personal branding
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:for women founders?
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:So the biggest thing that I say to people is never, never make it up because you will get
found out eventually never ever have to make it up.
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:quite often, especially when I work with clients, we find out stuff about them that they
probably would never think of sort of bringing up and sort of saying, this is me.
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:And it's just like, well, it connects with what you're trying to do.
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:And the whole point of a brand is it's the human connection.
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:It's the human connection between your business and the person that you're trying to
engage or you're trying to sell to.
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:all big businesses do it because they know that's how it works is that we, as much as we'd
love to say that we buy with critical thinking, we go and look at reviews and stuff, we do
333
:all of these things, we don't, we buy with emotions.
334
:This is why most people come out of Ikea with lots of stuff that they didn't need because
Ikea are very, very good at it.
335
:And that's exactly.
336
:So I worked out now that the only way that I can stop myself from buying things from Ikea
is if you go in the back way.
337
:And you just go straight.
338
:That's the only way you start walking around.
339
:Then it starts working again.
340
:so it's all to do with emotional connection and the fever founders, we're really, really
good at emotional connection.
341
:That's what we're really good at.
342
:So it's looking at those kinds of things and understanding what their, their audiences and
saying like, well, what does your audience want?
343
:and quite often I talk to my clients because they hate most clients hate sort of looking
and going, I want to niche down into a little group because it
344
:Ultimately on the grand scheme of things, it doesn't make sense.
345
:It's like, I'm going to focus on this small, tiny group of people instead of the entire
world.
346
:Why am I not doing that?
347
:But it works really, really well.
348
:And one of the things that we talk about is psychographics.
349
:So what makes them take action?
350
:What makes them go and Google?
351
:What makes them sit up in the middle of the night and scribble something on a piece of
paper?
352
:Those are the bits that we really, really focus on when we're looking at our clientele and
understanding what they're like.
353
:I also talked to them about sort of how are you going to present yourself?
354
:How are you sounding?
355
:How, one of the questions that always, when I do my strategy calls, always, always starts
people going, I've never thought of it this way.
356
:And it stumps them for a good 10 seconds while they're thinking about it is that if I say
to them, if your brand was human, what would they look like?
357
:What would they be wearing?
358
:How would they be dressed?
359
:Would they have tattoos?
360
:Would they have piercings?
361
:What, what would they look like?
362
:Because we're trying to create.
363
:human side of it and it always stumps because I've never thought of it this way and I was
like well this is what a human's coming across so we work on all of these kind of things
364
:together and that's what the brand is is that that's what we're doing is we're creating a
more human side but as I've said before we're not creating anything that is fake we're not
365
:doing anything like I want this brand to look like this because it doesn't work especially
when you're a founder it comes from the founder at the end the day the brand comes from
366
:the founder
367
:And then it influences and as the business grows, there's still parts of the founder
that's in that business anyway So we do we look at all of those kind of emotional sides of
368
:things But we make sure that everything is crystal clear.
369
:It's also things that they want to publicize So there'll be certain things that they go
You know what?
370
:I don't want to put everything out and I I'm very much of the opinion of dope Everything
out in the world because once it's out there once it's on socials
371
:Once it's out in the web, you cannot get it back.
372
:That's the end result.
373
:Regardless of how much you sort of go or delete that post or whatnot.
374
:Once it's out there, it's out there.
375
:So yeah.
376
:Yeah.
377
:And psychologically speaking, that space between intention and action that I'm exploring
at the moment, which is I intend to be this type of person, which is closer to my actual
378
:self or my idealized self.
379
:And I will need to do these types of things.
380
:Usually the thing that stops us is that worry of
381
:putting something out there and it being out there forever.
382
:And really, really oddly, I spoke to somebody last week and I can't remember who it was,
but we were talking about podcasts and they said, I'm really actually worried about doing
383
:podcasts because when I put something out there, it's out there forever.
384
:And I said, you know, I remember vaguely having that thought years ago before I went on my
first podcast.
385
:said, but I don't think about it like that anymore.
386
:I said, that's just, I've moved on with that because it's not a worry, but that control
piece shows up so much in terms of how much we control what we put out versus we don't.
387
:Where are you sitting with that with clients?
388
:How do you move that forward for them?
389
:So for me, I always say to them, especially when like the first thing that we start with
is like, tell me what your business story is.
390
:Tell me what's happened.
391
:Tell me what's in the background.
392
:We write it all out.
393
:and usually we do an exercise, especially from doing workshops to say like, we'll
highlight the bits that you are happy talking about.
394
:And these are the bits that it will still tell your story at the end of the day, but it's
not releasing anything that potentially it might be traumatic.
395
:It might be the fact that you know what?
396
:I'm not ready to.
397
:to say that, I'm not ready to tell people about that.
398
:So they're still telling their story, but it's in a way that for them, they're confident
about it.
399
:Because as you said before, people feel scared about if I put something out there and it's
very much if we put something out there and somebody judges for it, then it feels
400
:horrible.
401
:It's that feeling of like neglect, it's that feeling of just like maybe I've said
something wrong, somebody, all of those kinds of things.
402
:And so this is a kind of way of still telling your story, but being sort of, as you said,
in control of that narrative and being able to say, these are the things that I want to
403
:say.
404
:There is nothing to say that later on down the line.
405
:They release that later, but it allows them to have that sort of thought of I've written
it all down.
406
:This is my entire story.
407
:I can decide if I'm going to let that out.
408
:And I even tell you to clients, you don't have to let it all out.
409
:online so you don't need to put everything out on socials if there's stuff there that
you're like actually I don't want to put out there I was like well maybe you could do it
410
:in your email list because that email list is a little bit more sort of connected you know
everybody that's going to be in there it's a bit more sort of personal you could do it in
411
:workshops so you can release little tiny bits and pieces here and there but not
everybody's gonna know about it and I think in a way that's kind of the same for sort of
412
:if you're you're speaking to people and you're talking to people and you're you're
connecting with people
413
:is that you don't just kind of bound up to somebody and give them your entire life story
on a plate because people go, you're like, wait, do I do that?
414
:Because I think sometimes it depends on the situation, but some people sort of go, that's
a bit too much.
415
:And especially if there's lots of things like that's kind of sort of traumatic or all of
those kinds of things, but people like that might be a bit too much.
416
:So you can kind of release it.
417
:that's kind of what you do with friendships as well is that you kind of, you get to know
each other and then you slowly sort of tell each other a little bit more and then you get
418
:to know each other.
419
:And it's that relationship, which is what branding is.
420
:It's we're creating relationships and we're creating connections.
421
:So you're every time that sort of, give you a little bit, then you give them a little bit
more.
422
:And that's kind of what we try and do with them.
423
:So it's making sure that the female entrepreneurs, they're confident in what they're
saying, because I think
424
:especially as we go back to sort of the societal things, is it's very scary for women to
kind of put themselves out there because they are going to get judged more harshly.
425
:If anything goes wrong, they don't have a second or third chance.
426
:They have one chance and that's kind of it.
427
:They're going to get judged more than often.
428
:They'll probably be told that why are you starting a business?
429
:Can you run a business?
430
:Can you make money?
431
:That there's all these kind of questions about their authority and their professionalism
and their expertise and
432
:their actual ability to actually run a business, that it can be really, really scary just
kind of putting it out there.
433
:So allowing them to be in control of that, it's a bit more, it's easier for them to kind
of put themselves out there, which is what you need to do effectively.
434
:When you're doing your business, this is what makes it different is that you can't just
sell your products and services because everybody has the same products and services.
435
:I think if you went on a...
436
:Facebook group and said, I need a logo.
437
:You will find thousands of people that will suddenly pile in and go, I can do that for
you.
438
:So what's going to make you different?
439
:The difference is the brand.
440
:And there's a difference of how you tell that brand, how you tell your story and what you
actually offer.
441
:so yeah, so we work on that and we work on making sure that they feel confident in doing
that and confident in putting out, putting themselves out there.
442
:listening to what you were saying there.
443
:And I hear you.
444
:think there are parallels in coaching conversations I have with women and men around being
comfortable thinking about what we want to say and what we don't.
445
:And it comes back to me to this idea of boundaries.
446
:And often when we start a business, we come up with a business plan, we'll do some
marketing plans, we're told to do this strategy, that strategy.
447
:I talk to clients about what's your boundary strategy, know, how are you going to manage
boundaries?
448
:And that seems to be a similar thing that you're doing, but with that branding lens on it,
I really like that.
449
:I think we could all do better to sit back and go, how are my boundaries working for me
now?
450
:Where would I like to move them to?
451
:What exercises can I do to push boundaries and push myself out of my comfort zone as well?
452
:I think it's very, very interesting.
453
:you
454
:Some folk are more aware of discrepancies between what, who they are and who they perhaps
perceive their ideal self to be.
455
:So there are lots of people who start a business with an idea of growth being part of that
journey as well.
456
:And it's quite reasonable perhaps that we start off our business journey being one person
and evolve into another one.
457
:So that's quite good.
458
:For people who are listening and are not looking at the video of our conversation, you've
got this magnificent leopard shirt on with a big leopard print copper collar, and you have
459
:got leopard in the title of your creative agency.
460
:Tell me a little bit about the story behind that, as soon as we're talking about stories.
461
:so, so when I started my business, first and foremost thing was my business was called my
name.
462
:It was Katie Cope, because I was just like, we need to get ourselves out there.
463
:After sort of a while, I was only offering sort of graphic design at that point of view.
464
:And I realized that when I was working with particularly female entrepreneurs, the things
that they were saying is that I want to get visible, I want to be seen as a professional,
465
:I want to be seen as an expert.
466
:But graphic design wasn't doing it.
467
:And I was like, well, that's weird because graphic design, there's the visibility side of
things.
468
:Why is this not working?
469
:Which is where it kind of started going down the route of branding and actually
understanding the strategy side of things and actually where all that aside came from.
470
:So then the business actually evolved into brand by Katie.
471
:Again, I was like, says what it does on the tin, really?
472
:That's what I was going for.
473
:So then that sort of evolved into brand by Katie.
474
:Now the reason why it came up with Keppel Epic Creative was sort of, I think it's now like
three years ago, I sort of went, I want the business to be bigger than me.
475
:I want the business to be global.
476
:That's ultimately the way that the business is going is global domination.
477
:I'm for global domination.
478
:I want everybody else to have global domination.
479
:Yeah.
480
:And so I thought ultimately in the name, it can't just be my name because there's going to
be a team and it doesn't feel like it can evolve in that way.
481
:And so ultimately where the name comes from, Keppel is the color that you see on pretty
much every single thing that you see.
482
:And that is a color that has been with me from the beginning.
483
:So I have always had that color in my brand.
484
:So I was just like, well, if I, if I use it all the time, may as well shove it into the
actual name.
485
:Yeah.
486
:It's kind of, it's a teal green.
487
:it's slight.
488
:It's, it's kind of like a more darker shade of teal.
489
:basically.
490
:So it's a tealy kind of greeny colour and that's always been part of it.
491
:It also turns out because I was just like, surely I'm not that very good with this kind of
colour.
492
:Turns out that my bathroom is the same colour, my water bottle is the same colour, my book
is the same colour, my notebook.
493
:So it turns out that I am really attracted to that colour anyway.
494
:So was like, we may as put it in.
495
:Leopard came from the fact that I don't believe that women should ever have to change
their spots.
496
:like leopards, they should never have to change their spots.
497
:They should be able to present themselves as they are, spots and all.
498
:And also with leopards as well is that leopards aren't the kind of people, the kind of
animals that sort of show themselves up all the time.
499
:They're not presenting themselves all the time.
500
:They're not going out and going, here I am, this is me.
501
:They're normally quite quiet and they normally kind of hide away from everything and they
only kind of come out when A, they need to and B, if they want to.
502
:And that was kind of ultimately what a lot of my clients are.
503
:And that's what I'm like.
504
:I'm not the kind of person that you will see sort of every day on socials, talking about
stuff and chatting about things and all those kinds of stuff.
505
:I am not that kind of person anyway.
506
:And a lot of my clientele aren't like that.
507
:What they are focused on is the drive to help other people.
508
:That's what they want.
509
:They want the impact.
510
:So quite often, especially in some of my...
511
:the groups and communities and stuff that I've started up with is that I'm very clear of
like, if you're showing up every day and having a chat and a chin wag, I'm going to
512
:question it because you're not running your business.
513
:Something's going on and we need to talk about it.
514
:And quite often, like my communities and things that I have, they're very quiet.
515
:And that's a good thing because they're only going to be showing up when they need to and
when they need help and when they need advice, which is where leopards come from.
516
:So it kind of fully encapsulates what, what the business does.
517
:you, I hear you, but I'm also going to challenge you.
518
:Because I really love the analogy.
519
:I love that metaphor.
520
:And there's definitely something in there, isn't there, about...
521
:I love that idea that we don't have to change our spots.
522
:I really, truly, I think that psychological idea of this being authentic really speaks to
me.
523
:I think that challenge comes from a space of...
524
:the judgment that comes from one woman to another about how we show up in online spaces.
525
:And this was what was so curious for me when I did that imposter phenomenon research, was
women just so worried about what other women would think of them, or audacity is a word,
526
:isn't it?
527
:That women either use to judge forward or to hold space.
528
:So I'm going to be audacious, I'm going to hold space for myself, or how dare she, or who
does she think she is?
529
:It's such an interesting, I feel like it's a loaded concept, isn't it?
530
:It's quite interesting.
531
:So my challenge comes from, I'm curious about why we think those things and where that's
come from.
532
:And certainly holding space isn't terrible, but yeah, it's definitely interesting when we
get those judgments and then where's that come from?
533
:Why do we have that belief?
534
:I think it's a societal thing.
535
:It's very much a societal thing where, especially back, really back in the day where women
should be
536
:dressed a certain way, they should present themselves a certain way, when there's class
systems, there's certain ways that you present yourself, how you should look, how you
537
:should feel.
538
:And it was a way of other women sort of making sure that they stayed in line and made sure
that they didn't.
539
:I think effectively it was coming from a place of embarrassment.
540
:It's like, don't embarrass, don't embarrass the family, don't embarrass me, don't
embarrass anybody else.
541
:So women ourselves will, we'll police ourselves.
542
:And I think
543
:That's a big issue is that women will do that.
544
:There's like, shouldn't say that.
545
:You shouldn't say stuff like that.
546
:shouldn't, yeah.
547
:tall poppy syndrome.
548
:And I'm just looking on my bookshelf now because there's a really good episode by Dr.
549
:Grace Lorden on her podcast where she interviews people about the tall poppy syndrome.
550
:It's particularly a phenomenon in cultures where there's a collectiveness in terms of
everybody works in a collective spirit.
551
:So therefore standing above the crowd is not a...
552
:a great thing.
553
:So there's some kind of survival instinct in there.
554
:And if we're talking about animals and, you know, nature, nurture, that kind of stuff,
it's all very interesting, isn't it?
555
:But yeah, fascinating.
556
:Talking about, I suppose, who we are and where we come from.
557
:Another thing that I just didn't know about you was just how interesting your heritage is.
558
:And when we first met,
559
:I met you at a networking event, we were talking about your speech and your skirt and that
was great.
560
:But it's only because I've got to know you, I now know that you are a Philippine, that
you've spent time in Oman and you also lived in Glasgow.
561
:Do want to just kind of talk to us a little bit about that and how that kind of comes
through in your work and how you approach things?
562
:Yeah, exactly.
563
:So I think when we were talking before saying that I actually sort of in a way realized
that the whole thing about brand identity and identity side of things, it does really come
564
:from right, right at the beginning.
565
:So as you said, I am Filipino.
566
:My parents are Caucasian.
567
:So we always kind of grew up, we knew from the get go that we were adopted Mema System.
568
:We knew that we were adopted.
569
:And we've always had that thing of my parents have always said that potentially people are
going to look at us differently because our family dynamic is different.
570
:So we've kind of always grown up and known about it.
571
:They have always been super open and honest about adoption.
572
:They've always been very much if you want to go and find out more, we will go back to the
Philippines.
573
:All of those kind of things.
574
:They've been very open and honest about it, which I absolutely love.
575
:So I kind of grew up knowing sort of
576
:that it was going to be slightly different dynamic, but we didn't really kind of notice it
in a way.
577
:And it was only when my son started asking sort of why is my skin darker and why do I tan
better than daddy?
578
:Because daddy's not.
579
:Daddy's a Mancunian, so he's paler than pill.
580
:No, goes nowhere near.
581
:So he started asking the question when he sort of like, well, where does this come from?
582
:So that's when sort of we started looking at.
583
:culture and that side of things.
584
:But yeah, I've sort of gone around and sort of when I was growing up, I lived in Oman for
three years.
585
:So again, it's a different kind of culture.
586
:And that was interesting as well, because there was it there, there was certain
segregation.
587
:So there was places where Western people could go.
588
:So there was places where Western people could go and go to the beach and bathe and
things, and they could actually properly like wear swimming costumes and stuff.
589
:There were other places that we went as well, where like I remember my mum had to cover
up, so you can't show off your shoulders, you can't show off anything.
590
:And it was respectful.
591
:And I think that was the biggest thing as well that I noticed is just like, just these
kind of like minor changes, how easy it is to just kind of be respectful of other people's
592
:cultures and things without having to change your own kind of views and opinions and
things.
593
:So yeah, so we lived there.
594
:And then we also lived up in, we lived in an hour out from Glasgow.
595
:We lived in Helensburgh.
596
:And again, that was another sort of kind of difference.
597
:that was the longest that we stayed anywhere because we were going through high school.
598
:And my husband finds it really funny because if I go back up to Scotland and I start
talking to people, I will get an inflection of Scottish.
599
:I won't actually have any accent, but I will say certain things that sound Scottish.
600
:And he was having a giggle because we went to one of my friends, really good friends
weddings.
601
:and I'd been speaking to people who were Scottish and had an accent all day.
602
:And we came back on the train, but I was also hearing Mancunians at the same time.
603
:So I was having this weird accent going on where it was like half Scottish, half
Mancunian, and he's going, what are you doing?
604
:And I was like, I don't, I can't help it.
605
:I just need to hear more Mancunians and then the accent will disappear.
606
:But yeah, I will pick up on different accents.
607
:If I go back to Oman, Oman's got very sort of, very English, very posh accent.
608
:I will go into that accent as well.
609
:And I notice it with my friends as well, is that some of them, one of my friends, she
sounds quite American, I will start doing the same thing as her.
610
:And I think it's way of connecting with people.
611
:I definitely know it's a way of connecting with people.
612
:But yeah, I've had this sort of thing of all these different kinds of identities and
learning about them and also my own identity as well, which I think it feeds into what I
613
:do as a...
614
:brand strategist and designer is that I can see all of these kind of identities and how
you put them all together.
615
:yeah.
616
:rooted in your heritage and your cultural background.
617
:So one of the really interesting things about accent imitation is that we know that we are
affected by accents more when we have a fondness for that person or place.
618
:So the very fact that you've gone back to a place which was fond to you, Glasgow, or
you've got...
619
:It sounds like you've got really lovely memories and experiences that you recalling about
visits to beaches in Roanoke and respectful experiences.
620
:So again, you're going to be affected by those.
621
:But also we know that people who are, I suppose, bicultural, you're multicultural if you
like, have this openness to new experiences probably more than.
622
:the general population.
623
:So all of these things would make you more likely to imitate an accent.
624
:But I also wonder psychologically if there's something there with ADHD as well, because we
know with ADHD there's some kind of mirroring, masking and picking up on social norms in
625
:different ways.
626
:So it's just very interesting, but I definitely see how that comes through for you.
627
:Another really interesting thing psychologically is how
628
:We think that people like yourself who've had all of these different experiences with
different cultures can actually, it makes them better problem solvers.
629
:So there's some research which really indicates that you're problem solving.
630
:And when we started this conversation, one of your first examples is, right, so I didn't
know what to do.
631
:So I gave myself a limited choice to narrow this down.
632
:And I just thought, God, you know, you're such a creative problem solver.
633
:And the parallel there.
634
:Yeah.
635
:your approach to creativity for drawing some chairs.
636
:Your creativity just shows up in some really surprising ways doesn't it?
637
:does really, really surprising.
638
:Cause I mean like along with that as well.
639
:Um, so before sort of I started the business and everything is I actually worked in film
and TV.
640
:So I worked in high end TV and normally when you start working in high end TV or you work
in any kind of film industry, you start sort of when you're really young, you come out of
641
:uni and that's when you start and you start as a runner.
642
:That's, that's kind of the norm.
643
:And then you kind of branch way up.
644
:I actually started.
645
:because after my son, I kind of realized I'm not doing anything creative.
646
:So I was in the events industry, events is very much health and safety is very
process-based.
647
:And was like, I'm actually not doing anything creative.
648
:And at that point, I didn't feel that I had good graphic design skills to actually go out
and go out to different design agencies and say, hey, I'm a graphic designer.
649
:Can I come and work for you?
650
:I didn't think that I had those skills yet.
651
:And so my brain went, you know what?
652
:in TV, they fake everything.
653
:So I could fake the graphics and that should be fine.
654
:And that is how very much that I started looking at like, how do I get into TV and film?
655
:And it just so happened that on this one occasion when I was kind of looking at something
that there was a open day at Space Project.
656
:So Space Project in Manchester is where it's all the studios, it's the big TV film studios
where they film Peaky Blinders in there.
657
:They filmed a few other things.
658
:And they're having this massive open day and sort of going, anybody can come, you do not
need to have a degree in film on TV or anything, just come down.
659
:And what we're going to do is we're going to introduce you to all of the different sort of
parts of the crew, because what they were finding is now that you've got sort of Netflix,
660
:Sky, Apple TV and things, is that when you look at their sets, it's like a mini movie set.
661
:So you need to have the crew that's there.
662
:And then we're realizing that we're running out of crew.
663
:because all the crew that they needed was all being taken by all these big different,
these different companies.
664
:So they were trying to recruit more crew into it from anywhere.
665
:So I went down for the weekend and met a production designer and literally just talked to
her and went, here's my portfolio, please have chucked everything at her.
666
:Didn't think anything of it until pretty much three weeks later, she rang and said,
there's a, there's going to be a production of
667
:Free Rain that's filmed over in Cheshire Way and she said do you want to come on as a art
department assistant?
668
:And I went yes.
669
:And I literally like I had two weeks notice and then I went and did that and did the the
Christmas episode and also the Valentine's Day episode as well and that's what I did.
670
:But yeah from that it was just a literal problem solving of I can't really do graphics
because I'm not 100 % qualified in that.
671
:I'll go and fake it for a bit.
672
:I go off.
673
:very, very interesting.
674
:I don't know whether you've had chance to listen, because it only literally came out maybe
a week ago.
675
:I did an episode on body doubling and the psychology behind body doubling with Tessa and
Brie from the University of California, Santa Cruz.
676
:And one of the most interesting things around body doubling was just this idea of stepping
into a role, being able to perform or pretend to perform.
677
:Yeah.
678
:in a place and space to be able to give ourselves that momentum to go forward for
something.
679
:And you've literally just done that there.
680
:What you did was, you you took yourself from a place of thinking, I can't, and made
yourself into a can-do person by just shifting your view on whether you were going to
681
:pretend to be something.
682
:I find that so curious.
683
:And genius.
684
:Curious and genius at the same time.
685
:Yeah, I'm pretty sure like where I think when I told my mother about it, she's just like,
what are you doing?
686
:I was just like, yeah, it should be fine.
687
:I was like, and I mean, like, now I look back at it, I kind of think it was a little
insane because it was a two, it was a two and a half hour commute both ways.
688
:So it was like four hour commute.
689
:I never, I never missed a set call, which I was like,
690
:I'm pretty happy about that, but it two hours out and then I had to get there for seven in
the morning and I wasn't leaving until eight at night.
691
:So that was what the time of day was.
692
:Plus we were driving like across Cheshire as well to get to all these different places.
693
:But it gave me like such a sort of appreciation of like how much you've got to do, how
quickly you've got to do things.
694
:One of the things I say to people like, if I'm kind of like introducing myself is that on
that set, I had to make a belt for a horse in two hours because they had to practice.
695
:having a balloon tied to them and they like, we need to make a belt.
696
:And because I could sew, randomly I could sew, made a belt for a horse and then delivered
it and they got to practice with it.
697
:So it was things like that that were just really weird and really random, but it gave me
like a lot of sort of insight of how the production worked and also how quick things are.
698
:And that creative side as well is because you have to be incredibly creative because a lot
of the things that you see, because when we were doing the Christmas,
699
:episode, you can't use cards that you can't just go into like a card factory or anything
and pick up the cards because it's copyrighted.
700
:You've got to create them all.
701
:So all of the things that you see, it's all been created by the art department and we were
making shed loads of Christmas cards.
702
:And then for the Valentine's Day special one, there's a thing called a hero prop, which is
basically what the one of the main characters has.
703
:But because it was a like a Valentine's Day card.
704
:obviously that's going to get ruined throughout the place and you need to have
consistency.
705
:So we had to make 20 of these cards exactly the same so that they could use them so that
we had the consistency, we had the continuity and things.
706
:So it's all these kinds of things that you suddenly realize like these are all the things
that go into it.
707
:It so interesting.
708
:So, so interesting.
709
:I this chat and I loved hearing from you especially about all the different bits about
your personality and what really goes into your brand.
710
:The idea even, you know, from your name, the Keppel, the colour of the green and the
leopard.
711
:I think it's such a lovely, it trips off the tongue beautifully, Keppel.
712
:I really like that.
713
:But yeah, everything.
714
:has a backstory to it.
715
:And that was the thing that really piqued my interest when we were chatting, because you
were saying, yes, I'm going to do more of this this year, and I'm going to put a little
716
:bit of my identity, my personality out there.
717
:And I was like, God, you have to come onto the podcast, because that's exactly what I'm
doing.
718
:It's that gap, isn't it, between your intention and actions.
719
:So this is one of your actions to move yourself forward into that intention.
720
:But you do this.
721
:as bread and butter work.
722
:That's the really fascinating thing for me is that you do this for everybody else.
723
:Yeah, it is.
724
:And I think it I find it really interesting.
725
:And I think that's when we were talking about is the fact that I can do it for everybody
else.
726
:And I can see what everybody else is going for.
727
:And I can see those little sort of hints of sort of stuff.
728
:It's like, that's that's the position that you need to be in.
729
:And that's where you need to go, because I can see it.
730
:And very much because how we usually do strategy, it's like a two and a half hour
conversation.
731
:And it is like this is we just have a conversation with people.
732
:And it's those little bits, it's those little tip bits where they sort of say it on an
offside or they just kind of put it under the breath or whatnot is like, that's the bit.
733
:So I can pick it out and I can really kind of pull it out, but I don't do it for myself.
734
:And I was just like, actually, think putting myself out there, just a little bit more
talking about it a little bit more, really helped people kind of sort of realize like the
735
:whole sort of story behind it and where it actually kind of came from.
736
:Because I think quite often people sort of questions like where does capital left would
come from most of the time?
737
:They ask is there such thing as a capital leopard.
738
:I'm like, no, I've never found one so far Yeah Yeah, it's a color Yeah, yeah exactly So
yeah, so so yeah, so I thought maybe sort of going out especially because how the business
739
:is going is that is now it's starting to grow and it's starting to move away is like
actually
740
:kind want to tell people a little bit more about where everything kind of comes from.
741
:There is an actual backstory behind everything and where things come from.
742
:And I think people know bits and pieces and I tell people like little tiny bits and it's
the same thing is that I will tell people certain things and other people certain things.
743
:But it's quite nice to just kind of go, this is how it all kind of happened and this is
why it all kind of comes to this fruition and this is where I am now.
744
:So.
745
:definitely intrigued to see where the year takes you with that kind of control and
boundary around your personal identity and what you choose to share with us.
746
:It's such an interesting concept, isn't it?
747
:I've got a word of the year and my word of the year is joy and I'm bringing more joy to
things and there's a reason for this.
748
:Part of it is to, I suppose, push myself a little bit out of my comfort zone and bring in
spontaneity.
749
:Yeah.
750
:do you bring, I mean, I think you've demonstrated through the conversation how you bring
joy to everything you do, how, you know, are there some things that you're doing to bring
751
:joy to your work, especially in this like kind of dull January that we're in at the
moment, or we've just come out of in February.
752
:we're slowly coming out of it.
753
:yeah, so I think this year, especially like for me and my husband, we suddenly realized
that actually in terms of our friendship groups, we haven't seen them very often because
754
:we all are super, super busy.
755
:We're all really, really busy.
756
:And then we thought actually we probably need to do it because especially I have ADHD.
757
:So what I think is I've to you yesterday, actually turns out, it's been three months.
758
:So I won't have that kind of time management.
759
:I'm like, oh, actually, I've spoken to you for ages.
760
:So we made it sort of very clear at the end of the year.
761
:It's like, we want to do more with our friends.
762
:We want to do more with our family.
763
:We want to make those connections.
764
:And we want to kind of prioritize that.
765
:So actually, this month, me and my high school friend, so we've known each other for
766
:donkey's ears, which is quite scary to realise that actually high school wasn't yesterday,
it was quite a far away way.
767
:And we know each other from right, right at the beginning of high school.
768
:We used to sit in class together.
769
:She used to pass me grapes when we weren't supposed to be eating in class.
770
:French verb tests were a group effort.
771
:So we've known each other for absolute ages.
772
:And we both have a really massive fondness of reading books and reading all sorts of
things.
773
:the other day, well, a few months ago, I found out that a place called Hey on Why is
dedicated to books and they've got loads and loads of bookshops and they do the
774
:literature, yeah, and they do the book festival.
775
:And we just kind of messaged each other and we were just like, this is really cool, should
we go?
776
:And we were like, yeah.
777
:So we booked somewhere for the weekend.
778
:So in January, I actually went for a long weekend with my best friend, Rowan.
779
:And we went to a bookshop.
780
:We spent four hours looking around, on why looking at books.
781
:And then the next day we spent reading books.
782
:That's what we did.
783
:We had a log fire.
784
:We read books.
785
:Our kids weren't interrupting us because they weren't there.
786
:Yeah.
787
:And so, yeah, so it was really, really nice.
788
:So that's ultimately that was that was really nice because we hadn't seen it.
789
:We hadn't seen each other since the pandemic.
790
:So we hadn't seen each other for ages.
791
:And it was just one of those things, again, where we sort of we keep in contact with each
other.
792
:We kind of think that we saw each other yesterday.
793
:We have not.
794
:have, it has been like eight years since we've seen each other.
795
:So it was really lovely.
796
:And it was, what was really, what was really interesting was when we were, when we were
talking about it and things is that ultimately we are both very similar.
797
:So she was messaging me and going, are you okay with crosshands?
798
:I was just like, it's not a holiday without crosshands.
799
:She's like, I know, right?
800
:So yeah, so we had like crosshands.
801
:And things like, I messaged her, like, we should get orange juice.
802
:She's like, it's already on the list.
803
:Are you okay with bits or no bits?
804
:It's like, not really fuss.
805
:So we are very, very like really in sync with each other.
806
:And what was even more hilarious when we were on there, we were talking about, for
Christmas I got Hogwarts legacy.
807
:So we both were big Harry Potter fans when we were at school and I got Harry Potter legacy
on the Xbox.
808
:Cause my husband bought it.
809
:I was like, this is amazing.
810
:she'd also got it for Christmas at the same time.
811
:But we hadn't told each other and she said, I'm playing this game and it's about Hogwarts.
812
:I was like, is it Hogwarts legacy?
813
:And she's like, yes, it is.
814
:And I was just like, and then I said, it was just like, what house did you go for?
815
:Cause if you've not known about Harry Potter and things, there's four different houses
that you go into.
816
:Most people, most people cause Harry Potter is in Gryffindor.
817
:They go for Gryffindor.
818
:We both went for Ravenclaw.
819
:Cause we're just like.
820
:Ravenclaw's better, right?
821
:was like, So yeah, hadn't, we hadn't sort of spoken about it.
822
:We'd not known, neither of us knew it.
823
:And I was just like, so what house did you go for?
824
:She's like, Ravenclaw.
825
:was like, yeah, exactly.
826
:So yeah.
827
:So we've had, all the time and we've got some other things booked in as well to like meet
up with friends, catch up with them, all those things.
828
:So that's, that's the kind of priority for this time and making connections, making
connections business wise, making connections back with, friends as well.
829
:So.
830
:I love that.
831
:I love that so much.
832
:Thank you so much for sharing that with me.
833
:What I'll do now is I'll just record the outro to my podcast and say thank you to you too.
834
:And then I'll stop the recording.
835
:no worries.
836
:Thanks for listening to Psychologically Speaking with me, Leela Ainge and my guest, Katie
Cope.
837
:My usual reminder is to rate, review and share this podcast widely as it really helps
independent podcasters like me.
838
:I'm opening up additional coaching slots for 2025.
839
:My specialities include tackling imposter phenomenon, of course, accountability and
supporting first-time directors and business owners, balance growth with joy.
840
:I also offer one-to-one supervision and group supervision sessions for coaches.
841
:Visit my website www.leelaange.co.uk for pricing and package information and use inquiry
form.
842
:That's all for now.
843
:Psychologically Speaking continues in February, looking at the space between intention and
action when it comes to personal and professional identities.
844
:There we go.
845
:I'm just going to press the stop on record.
