60. The patriarchy has been squatting in my temple - Emma While
What happens when body shame isn't actually about your body? This week I'm joined by coach and facilitator Emma While, who decided to evict what she calls "the patriarchy squatting in my temple" by taking a beginners' burlesque class at 49. We talk about shame, visibility, motherhood, neurodivergence, identity, and why the scariest risks are sometimes the ones that bring us closest to ourselves.
What follows is a conversation about far more than burlesque. We explore shame, motherhood, neurodivergence, identity, imposter experiences and why confidence isn't something you have—it's something you experience. And we ask what becomes possible when shame stops making your decisions.
https://www.courageandchamomile.com/become
Join the waitlist for Leilas adult inset day on September 15th here: https://psychologicallyspeaking.myflodesk.com/adultinsetday
Transcript
the patriarchy has been squatting in my temple
Speaker:I've just announced to the world that I no longer have this body shame
Speaker:and I've evicted the patriarchy.
Speaker:Here's the initiation. By the way,
Speaker:it's got sequins and tassels.
Speaker:Welcome to Psychologically Speaking with me,
Speaker:Leila Ainge. This season, we're exploring imposter phenomenon through
Speaker:the lens of risk taking. And we're going to be hearing from women
Speaker:who are no strangers to navigating risk through their business and personal lives.
Speaker:The question that I do want you to sit with this season is this,
Speaker:do imposter experiences make us more risk aware?
Speaker:And is that a good or a bad thing?
Speaker:So to help us unravel some of this.
Speaker:You're going to love today's guest.
Speaker:She is Emma While and she's going to talk about risk and exposure,
Speaker:quite literally. Emma is the creator of Rewilding,
Speaker:Motherhood, Method, and a coach and facilitator.
Speaker:So she's helping women to see through the stories and the living and
Speaker:the systems and who's written those for them.
Speaker:All the stuff we love to talk about on this podcast.
Speaker:So she's a Cambridge graduate.
Speaker:turned London media director, turned primary school teacher.
Speaker:And yes, that is the right way round.
Speaker:you
Speaker:I had to read that twice because I thought,
Speaker:why would anyone go from being a media director to a primary school teacher?
Speaker:But she has done, we'll find all about that.
Speaker:So last month, and this is the reason she's come on the podcast,
Speaker:last month at the age of 49 years old,
Speaker:she took a beginner's burlesque class and performed Practically Naked
Speaker:in her first show.
Speaker:So she's here to talk about exactly why we need that kind
Speaker:of terrifying and necessary risk taking in our lives.
Speaker:Emma, I have been so excited for this conversation and welcome to the podcast.
Speaker:Thank
Speaker:you so much, me too. I'm so looking forward to getting into all the juicy stuff.
Speaker:So
Speaker:I'm just going to jump right into the good juicy stuff which is how did
Speaker:you end up performing nearly naked in a burlesque show?
Speaker:Where did that come from and what was the impetus to do it?
Speaker:It's a really...
Speaker:Good question, because what I didn't do was sit with a vision board
Speaker:and my New Year's resolutions,
Speaker:because I don't do those anyway,
Speaker:go, hmm, I know what I'll do this year.
Speaker:I'll learn a new skill and it will be burlesque and I shall get naked.
Speaker:That absolutely did not happen.
Speaker:You
Speaker:But what I did do was ~ I've been doing my own shame work and my own shame practice.
Speaker:And at the beginning of the year,
Speaker:I kind of really doubled down on that.
Speaker:And one of the things that I was working on was body shame,
Speaker:it's something that I have always carried let alone what size,
Speaker:shape, fitness, anything I was,
Speaker:I was still full of shame about whatever.
Speaker:~ And so this at beginning of this year I was really working
Speaker:on that and ~ I realized even though it's not...
Speaker:You know when you realize something that you already knew but you kind
Speaker:of realize and you're like, ~ no,
Speaker:I really realized that. I kind of it landed in my body that the patriarchy
Speaker:has been squatting in my temple and it needs evicting essentially.
Speaker:I love that, squatting in my temple,
Speaker:out you go.
Speaker:right? So I served
Speaker:eviction orders with immediate effect and I did all these Instagram posts showing
Speaker:my tummy which is the one thing I'm like okay nobody see it let's
Speaker:all pretend it's not there like we're just I know it's there but we're gonna pretend
Speaker:it's not a bit like Empress new clothes like we all know the thing
Speaker:but no one's gonna say the thing so I just got it out and I was like here
Speaker:you
Speaker:we are and then ~ somebody who is in the same space that
Speaker:we met in, shared,
Speaker:oh, I'm doing a burlesque course.
Speaker:Would you like to do it? And I was like,
Speaker:well, I can't say no to that,
Speaker:can I? Because I've just announced to the world that I no longer have this body
Speaker:shame and I've evicted the patriarchy.
Speaker:and OK, great. Here's the initiation.
Speaker:By the way, it's got sequins and tassels.
Speaker:And then financially, it didn't work out.
Speaker:~
Speaker:So I said,
Speaker:I was like, amazing, I can say no because it doesn't work out financially.
Speaker:So I said no. And then some other thing happened whereby now financially is OK.
Speaker:And I was like, the universe is really doing its thing.
Speaker:So I did say yes. And but I joined on the understanding that it
Speaker:was a beginner's burlesque class with the opportunity to perform in a show.
Speaker:I didn't realise it was a Beginners' Ballet class that was all about this show.
Speaker:Woo!
Speaker:So essentially each week you turn up you are practicing and getting yourself it's
Speaker:basically rehearsal.
Speaker:Yeah, so we learned to
Speaker:begin with, learned, we learned steps,
Speaker:we came up with our show girl name.
Speaker:~ We talked about what our because we were troops,
Speaker:so we talked about what our troop act would be.
Speaker:yeah, and the whole the whole thing
Speaker:was so confronting because I'm thinking I'm having to think about,
Speaker:but what do I wear? I don't have a closet full of.
Speaker:burlesque items and lingerie and nipple tassels and heels and fishnets
Speaker:and all the things like no I don't have any of that so I'm having
Speaker:to think about that whilst also I don't really know what any of that's going
Speaker:to look like on me so I'm going to have to try all the things in order
Speaker:to find the one thing that I'm kind of okay with but also okay
Speaker:but what's my showgirl name and what does that even mean and
Speaker:working with these people, how do we create our act?
Speaker:And so much, was just, I literally couldn't do anything else for eight weeks,
Speaker:because it just took over my whole brain,
Speaker:my whole nervous system.
Speaker:Tell me about your showgirl name.
Speaker:What did you choose and why?
Speaker:So in the end, I would chose Lulu La Flame.
Speaker:love that lulula flame where did that come from
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:well to begin with it was Ember Wild which I really liked because I
Speaker:was like that's basically my name but with a few extra letters and it's
Speaker:got wild and it's got like a smouldering fiery thing going on but then
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:I was like hmm
Speaker:It sounds a bit too clever. It doesn't actually sound like a showgirl name because,
Speaker:you know, they all have a certain sort of cheeky,
Speaker:funny vibe to them. And I went round and round the houses.
Speaker:Emma Juicer was in there at one point as well because they kept calling
Speaker:me snake hips. But Luna the Flame just kind of landed.
Speaker:because it's got La Flame. Last year I was deep in perimenopause,
Speaker:felt like everything was burning and just dissolving.
Speaker:so there was a Phoenix thing going on,
Speaker:there was a fire thing going on.
Speaker:And my mum used to call me Lulu.
Speaker:My mum died just over three years ago and no one ever,
Speaker:ever calls me Lulu anymore. My middle name is Louise.
Speaker:So I was like, Lulu La Flame, sounds like a showgirl name,
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:it's got Lulu in it, so it still is me.
Speaker:I didn't want something that was completely
Speaker:not my name even though that's sort of the point and it's got it's got
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:the flame in it with a laugh just
Speaker:for exotic frizzle ~ and then
Speaker:you
Speaker:I ended up I stuck sequined flames to the back of my heels
Speaker:as well so my fishnets had flames on was a whole flame thing so yeah that's where
Speaker:I love it. I love it.
Speaker:that came from
Speaker:And it's really intriguing that this journey,
Speaker:is using burlesques as almost like a resistance to shame,
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:started off with identity. So you're looking initially
Speaker:at what showgirl identity am I going to be?
Speaker:Yeah, yeah,
Speaker:That's really curious, isn't it?
Speaker:and to think about ~ whether we want to be sort of cutesy
Speaker:or funny or dark and sultry,
Speaker:~ but then also then mix that with the troupe.
Speaker:you know, there's because now I'm doing a solo course and there's a solo show
Speaker:at the end of that. So there's a whole other type of risk.
Speaker:So the risk with the troupe is are we going to gel?
Speaker:Will I muck it up for everyone else?
Speaker:Talk about imposter, imposter in there.
Speaker:I'm not going to be as good as everyone else.
Speaker:You know, if she wants to be cutesy and she wants to be funny,
Speaker:but she wants to be sultry, how the hell is that going to work?
Speaker:Will the audience get it? ~ And then for the solo one,
Speaker:lots of us have been saying, that's great because we,
Speaker:you know, we don't have to worry about messing up for anyone else.
Speaker:And I'm saying, but everyone will be looking directly and only at me.
Speaker:you
Speaker:There's no one else like, don't look at me,
Speaker:I'm doing it wrong, look at her.
Speaker:There's none of that.
Speaker:It's
Speaker:really curious, isn't it? So with the Troop thing then,
Speaker:you've got this idea like with burlesque,
Speaker:haven't you? Because it is a bit like,
Speaker:there's a retro element to burlesque.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:When I think of burlesque, I think about,
Speaker:know, decades ago and dark smoky clubs and all that kind of thing.
Speaker:And so you could say it's this kind of like retro femininity,
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:but...
Speaker:you're saying, you know, some of that is right at the start you started with that
Speaker:reinterpretation of identity and it's like almost like you create this identity
Speaker:for yourself well.
Speaker:I
Speaker:you
Speaker:So, yeah, designing art, thinking about our persona and ~ the persona
Speaker:we kind of want to bring. So what I have actually found really interesting,
Speaker:some people have said, it's really,
Speaker:what makes it easier is that you are kind of performing a character.
Speaker:And so that's easier to kind of show up and just do the performance.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But actually, what I've noticed is,
Speaker:do I want to admit this? Yes, I will admit this.
Speaker:~
Speaker:What it does is allow me to pretend that I'm performing a character while actually
Speaker:just completely being myself. Turns out,
Speaker:I'm turns out. I've carried 49 years of shame.
Speaker:But actually,
Speaker:Mmm.
Speaker:what's underneath that shame is a massive exhibitionist.
Speaker:And I was actually so comfortable up there doing the thing.
Speaker:~
Speaker:And I didn't feel like, I'm only able to do this thing because I'm pretending
Speaker:to be this character. I felt like I'm able to do this thing because
Speaker:I'm no longer pretending to be embarrassed or shameful about doing this thing.
Speaker:And in any other place of life,
Speaker:I can't do that because that's a bit like I don't think you should be doing that
Speaker:hip thrust in the middle of Tesco's with your nipples out.
Speaker:~ No, nipples weren't out. But on a in a burlesque show.
Speaker:you.
Speaker:You have full permission and full freedom to be as expressive,
Speaker:as evocative, as sensual, as whatever,
Speaker:as you want to. turns out I was always a showgirl.
Speaker:I think.
Speaker:I was always a showgirl. That is the title of your biography,
Speaker:Hehehehe
Speaker:by the way. I was always a showgirl.
Speaker:I am taking from this that there is very much a difference between body
Speaker:shame and feeling either looked at or what we talk about the gaze,
Speaker:don't we, the male gaze or that kind of stuff versus performance being
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:in control of being seen.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly. And the great thing about the burlesque audiences,
Speaker:especially the one we had, because it was organised by Lucy,
Speaker:who taught us. It was her show.
Speaker:It was her audience. They all knew that it was our first time.
Speaker:~ But actually, that wouldn't even have mattered because they reacted like this
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:for everyone. Burlesque audiences are so celebratory.
Speaker:so excited, so like I couldn't keep a straight face.
Speaker:There's bits where I'm supposed to be like all like serious and I
Speaker:was just cracking up because the audience is so enthusiastic
Speaker:and whooping and cheering and delighting.
Speaker:And I feel like especially as a mum and a send mum where actually,
Speaker:you know, a lot, a lot of us is disappearing ourselves and becoming invisible.
Speaker:Everyone's looking at me, everyone's cheering,
Speaker:right? And that can sound like,
Speaker:I don't know, that can sound a bit something.
Speaker:I can't think what the word is,
Speaker:but it's something that's negative.
Speaker:But all it is is a balancing out of all the rest of life where you're just flying
Speaker:completely under the radar, not being noticed,
Speaker:not being given a second's whatever.
Speaker:~
Speaker:but you're actually being celebrated and not even for something that you've done.
Speaker:Like I've been celebrated my whole life for every A and A star and clever thing I've
Speaker:ever done. Every time I've ever used my voice.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:Hooray celebrating. Actually look,
Speaker:I'm a thing that doesn't need an A star or a voice.
Speaker:I'm just a being. All right,
Speaker:in stilettos and like fish nets.
Speaker:But if that's what it takes, that's what it takes.
Speaker:So yeah, it's just kind of really interesting.
Speaker:It's really interesting because
Speaker:you're kind of turning on its head the narrative that,
Speaker:like a feminist narrative would be,
Speaker:you know, we must not be objectified and,
Speaker:you know, luck isn't everything and we're never appreciated for our brains
Speaker:and what we've got to add to the world.
Speaker:And you're saying, yeah, that's okay.
Speaker:But then also the other way around,
Speaker:if your intellect and what you've got to say is the only thing that people notice.
Speaker:that affects your confidence, esteem and feelings of shame too.
Speaker:Yes. Yeah,
Speaker:so I think what I've noticed is what has been noticed is my brain,
Speaker:my intellect, etc. and my size,
Speaker:my weight. And what's amazing about Burlesque is it's
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:a celebration of all bodies ~ and all bodies doing different things.
Speaker:And actually, we all commented afterwards how interesting our troop
Speaker:was because none of us was stick thin.
Speaker:airbrush, cellulite free etc. ~ So we actually are more interesting to look at.
Speaker:look at that I'm looking at photos after this going I did not know that that
Speaker:bit did that when I did that. So it
Speaker:you
Speaker:is it is yeah just a celebration
Speaker:of the female form but like you said that I am in control of because
Speaker:you
Speaker:the whole part of burlesque it's not just kind of tits.
Speaker:It's like, tease, look at this bit,
Speaker:look at that bit over there. No,
Speaker:I'm not going to let you do that.
Speaker:I'm going to do something else.
Speaker:It's so it isn't it is an objectification in that way.
Speaker:And it is all women in the audience mostly as well.
Speaker:~ But yeah.
Speaker:You know, it's not a neutral space,
Speaker:is it? So, yes, we can say that,
Speaker:you you've got that control over being seen and you get the empowerment from it.
Speaker:It sounds to me like there's almost that kind of collective confidence from
Speaker:the troop as well. And I love that because I hate the advice that tells women,
Speaker:Yes. Yes.
Speaker:just be more confident, as if it's just something you can just switch on
Speaker:or it's a single thing.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:And actually
Speaker:confidence isn't a trait, confidence is an experience.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And that's exactly how I see imposter,
Speaker:know, imposter's an experience.
Speaker:Yes, was about to say it.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly that. Because I love how you talk about imposter as it's
Speaker:not something that's living inside a person as their fault.
Speaker:It's and this is, you know, all the things I talk about in my work as well.
Speaker:You can't talk about the micro of a woman without looking at the macro
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:of the systemic guff that she's actually grown up in and been fed on.
Speaker:So it's exactly the same.
Speaker:So now I want to go back and say to you,
Speaker:tell me about your business and where you are at the moment.
Speaker:And how does that, at all,
Speaker:link to these feelings of shame that you've been exploring over the last 12 months?
Speaker:Yeah, it really does, Link. And actually,
Speaker:when you just said something,
Speaker:no, and I can't remember what it was,
Speaker:but it made me think one of the things that I thought when I came out of my berlet,
Speaker:we'd done the first show and you have the obvious kind of,
Speaker:~ you know, the contraction,
Speaker:the down, the post-show, it's like,
Speaker:right, so now what? Now I'm washing up and filling in the HCP forms again.
Speaker:Right. So one thing I thought to myself was how do I take that and
Speaker:how do I integrate that into
Speaker:the rest of my life. How does that actually get integrated into how I show
Speaker:up in my business? ~
Speaker:does it have to because that's patriarchal product toxic productivity
Speaker:by itself because maybe I'm allowed to do it because just because I wanted
Speaker:to and it was really good fun but for example I have never really been
Speaker:on other people's podcasts because of imposter's
Speaker:not syndrome imposter phenomenon because got myself because
Speaker:You
Speaker:Showing up in other people's spaces always feels really risky and unsafe to me,
Speaker:has done in the past because I don't know what they're going to say and
Speaker:I don't know what their agenda is and I don't know what I'm going to say
Speaker:and I don't know if other people are going to think I'll sound stupid.
Speaker:Like I know I'm not stupid, we've already said I went to Cambridge,
Speaker:but there's always been that thing.
Speaker:And I noticed when I saw you ask about this,
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I just said yes and I've been watching myself in the run up and I've noticed that
Speaker:I haven't
Speaker:suddenly shat myself at the last minute I go no I can't do it because what
Speaker:if I don't know what to say and I'd be a silly billy well if I do then
Speaker:I do it's fine so I've noticed that that is already different but back
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:to the business so ~ last year
Speaker:I went through a complete dissolution unraveling
Speaker:ego death times at 8 million hideousness of just plunging deep into perimenopause
Speaker:On the back of ~ losing my mum and then my grandma and then my nana
Speaker:and then my mother-in-law, not long before that,
Speaker:on the back of the year before my son came out of school,
Speaker:he hit complete autistic burnout and has come out of school.
Speaker:And my whole being last year was basically consumed
Speaker:by shame and imposter. I couldn't access anything else.
Speaker:I couldn't access this.
Speaker:couldn't access any thinking brain,
Speaker:I couldn't access any kind of sense of what to do with my business.
Speaker:And so I got to a point where I was like,
Speaker:I'm going to have to do the risky thing,
Speaker:which is to let it go. I can't keep trying to force myself to do that.
Speaker:So I stopped forcing and I let a lot of things go.
Speaker:I'd been doing five live launches a year,
Speaker:running, you know, all this stuff.
Speaker:with the income that matched that and ~ I had to let it all go and then
Speaker:of course I ended up in a place of well now I've got imposter because who
Speaker:am I to xyz when I can't even sustain my business and when my income is
Speaker:a fifth of what it was is it a fifth?
Speaker:you
Speaker:Yeah it probably is. ~ And then separating in my mind those two pieces
Speaker:and having compassion for
Speaker:So this is what shame does. Shame goes,
Speaker:it's your fault and you're stupid and you're wrong.
Speaker:And I don't care what the circumstances were.
Speaker:You should have done X, Y, Z thing.
Speaker:So a lot of my practice has been the compassionate witnessing and going,
Speaker:hang on a minute. Shall we just look at what you were going through?
Speaker:Actually, that is brave as hell to just sit back and let that happen.
Speaker:I mean, part of me is like you didn't have a choice,
Speaker:love. But to like...
Speaker:That is not anything to do with my ability to show up and hold space,
Speaker:to facilitate transformation, to coach women,
Speaker:to empower women. Yeah, all right,
Speaker:I have been in a deep place of disempowerment,
Speaker:but there's something really empowering about owning being in a place
Speaker:of deep disempowerment, somehow,
Speaker:as opposed to pretending. There's so much pretending on Instagram,
Speaker:which is why one of my things is we need to start telling the truth.
Speaker:Women holding up this
Speaker:fakery and performance, says the performer,
Speaker:is not helpful. We have to start telling the truth more.
Speaker:I had a post about my perimenopause experience that it just,
Speaker:it went absolutely bonkers, it went viral because people are like,
Speaker:finally, someone is explaining how I actually feel because everything else
Speaker:out there is like, second spring,
Speaker:you give less fucks, you're strong and all this stuff.
Speaker:And it's like, no, I do not feel like that.
Speaker:Yeah, I've not seen
Speaker:much of that so far. Personally,
Speaker:I won't see much of that. I love your framing here.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:First of all, know, loss and grief.
Speaker:Isn't that just the epitome of disempowerment anyway,
Speaker:you know? And what a kind of ~ a cascade
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:of that happening as well.
Speaker:out
Speaker:So
Speaker:waves off it, not just once, but twice,
Speaker:three times, you know, and no wonder you feel disempowered when that happens.
Speaker:Your social structures, you know,
Speaker:whether those relationships were mostly positive or negative,
Speaker:it doesn't matter really. are not.
Speaker:My cheerleading team, it was my matriarchal
Speaker:cheerleading team and it just disappeared.
Speaker:So of course that's destabilizing,
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:absolutely.
Speaker:And then the word that you used,
Speaker:which I thought was really insightful,
Speaker:is the word access. And you say,
Speaker:couldn't access this. I love that.
Speaker:I love that because that really shows me when you're saying,
Speaker:you know, I've been doing some work around the shame.
Speaker:When you say, I can't access something,
Speaker:that's great because it really positions that problem away from you into
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:the context and into the environment going.
Speaker:guys I can't access this why is that it's not me this access isn't here
Speaker:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker:and as a parent of a child in the send system you know that that kind
Speaker:of
Speaker:that resonates, that whole kind of,
Speaker:you know, there's the gatekeeping that happens and you can't quite
Speaker:get through stuff. But you pair that with ability.
Speaker:It's like ability is not equal to access.
Speaker:So I loved what you had to say there about all of that.
Speaker:Where do you...
Speaker:It helps me as
Speaker:well with the access thing because if I say I can't access my blah,
Speaker:what I'm not saying is I don't have blah,
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I can't do blah, I'm not blah.
Speaker:I have got whatever the blah is in this instance.
Speaker:It's just that I can't access it right now.
Speaker:But when you just said of a child in the SEND system,
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:you know, if I'm even fairer on myself,
Speaker:my full-time job...
Speaker:for the last two years has actually been sent advocacy.
Speaker:~ The amount of time that I spend in meetings on phone calls,
Speaker:writing emails, rewriting drafts,
Speaker:know, fighting, fighting, fighting,
Speaker:repeating myself, arguing, going backwards and forwards with school,
Speaker:with the LA, with goodness knows who and what.
Speaker:How I would have done that as well as a full time job whilst he's also home full
Speaker:time ~ and because
Speaker:is the way. It's me and not my husband who has taken 99.9 % of that.
Speaker:And you know,
Speaker:I've had so many clients who have given up their jobs in order to
Speaker:be a full-time SEND mum while their children are at school.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:And I'm
Speaker:berating myself because my income's dropped and I haven't been able to show
Speaker:up as much online while I've been doing all of that.
Speaker:It's like, hello, of course. The problem is the mortgage company's
Speaker:not interested in any of that.
Speaker:That's where the sticking point comes because you actually then don't have a choice.
Speaker:They're really not.
Speaker:But there's something so interesting when we look at the research that's been done
Speaker:with parents who have children with additional needs or support and
Speaker:just all consuming that identity is and becomes.
Speaker:It's both a protective factor.
Speaker:So the identity of I am this person's,
Speaker:you know, advocate and parent is very protective in some ways.
Speaker:It allows you to find other people like you and community and
Speaker:get solutions and access where it isn't always obvious how you access things.
Speaker:But
Speaker:It is double edged, it's like a cloak because once you've got that cloak
Speaker:on also you are there for hiding who you are and you are not seen.
Speaker:And that is that whole story isn't it,
Speaker:Yes. Yes.
Speaker:which is I put myself ~ on a platform with a group of other,
Speaker:with a troop and I've let people see me.
Speaker:Yes,
Speaker:yes, exactly, exactly then. That,
Speaker:sorry, you were going to ask something earlier when I completely interrupted you,
Speaker:but I'd love to ask you something.
Speaker:I'm really interested whether or not in your research you have seen
Speaker:Yeah, you go for it.
Speaker:me.
Speaker:or looked at imposter phenomenon,
Speaker:the difference between neurotypical and neurodivergent women.
Speaker:Because when I was doing my shame work,
Speaker:I basically came to a realisation that I've just made myself bad
Speaker:and wrong despite the actual empirical evidence.
Speaker:I've made myself bad and wrong about all the things all the time and
Speaker:my default has always been some kind of shame,
Speaker:wrongness or imposter. And when I look into that and I look into how,
Speaker:what is it, by the age of seven children with ADHD have received 20,000 more
Speaker:criticisms than their peers and when I look into the autistic experience
Speaker:and it's just a completely alien experience and a neurotic
Speaker:typical world but I'm not diagnosed autistic but I'm pretty sure I am.
Speaker:I do have an ADHD diagnosis and I'm wondering...
Speaker:How much of my sense of wrongness and not belonging and imposter in
Speaker:the world is actually because I'm trying to fit into a neurotypical world when
Speaker:I'm not. So of course I feel bad and wrong because against the model,
Speaker:that's even without the patriarchal layer of unless you're a cis,
Speaker:hetero, whatever, whatever white middle-aged man,
Speaker:you're you're bad and wrong anyway,
Speaker:it's even without that layer. So I just wondered how...
Speaker:had you had you see anything have you noticed that what yeah
Speaker:Yeah, so the noticing for sure.
Speaker:During my first phase of research,
Speaker:I didn't specifically ask women to tell me if they
Speaker:had autism or ADHD or any mental health concerns or disabilities
Speaker:or anything like that. So it was quite a short piece of research.
Speaker:But the interesting noticing was there was a lot of self-disclosure during those
Speaker:interviews. I have ADHD, I am autistic,
Speaker:I'm going through assessment. And the thematic stuff that came
Speaker:out of that initial research around imposter was very much people trying to...
Speaker:understand and learn how things should be done and you have to then
Speaker:ask the question whose version of should be done and they tried to learn
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:and if we're having to learn social scripts and it's we've reached the
Speaker:age of like 20 30 or 40 and most of my participants were like 40 you gotta
Speaker:ask the question right if that's not been learned by the age of 40 it's
Speaker:not that obvious to that person and therefore who's it serving so there is that
Speaker:Yeah
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Couple of other things, this statistic that goes round about,
Speaker:you know, children who have been diagnosed with ADHD hear negative things
Speaker:so many times, there was a really interesting point
Speaker:on LinkedIn by a professor who'd actually gone away and said,
Speaker:where's the evidence for that?
Speaker:Because I see it quoted and it is just an estimation.
Speaker:So we know it's just an estimation.
Speaker:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker:But therein lies the problem, there's very little hardcore data that lines
Speaker:up these experiences. So with my current research,
Speaker:which isn't looking at imposter phenomenon specifically,
Speaker:but it's looking at trust and how women,
Speaker:know, how their identities show up in online spaces,
Speaker:I am paying attention when people are disclosing like ADHD or autism,
Speaker:I am saying, can I...
Speaker:have I got your permission to use that in my research?
Speaker:So that's really, and I'm asking questions about,
Speaker:do you think, what do you think this means for you?
Speaker:So the really interesting thing is that I haven't gone out and said,
Speaker:I'd like to hear from neurodivergent people,
Speaker:but nine out of 10 people who have responded would tick that box.
Speaker:Yeah, it's really interesting,
Speaker:isn't it?
Speaker:Yeah. They would tick that box diagnosed or undiagnosed,
Speaker:Yeah, I love that.
Speaker:I would say. Yeah.
Speaker:When you just said about that 20,000,
Speaker:whatever it is, yeah, exactly,
Speaker:where does that even come from?
Speaker:And I've got a client who we were having this conversation and she said,
Speaker:well, that doesn't resonate with me because I don't ever remember being told this
Speaker:or told that. But when we dug into it further,
Speaker:it was because she was being the good girl.
Speaker:Yeah, masking rule.
Speaker:So in order,
Speaker:yeah, masking and doing the thing,
Speaker:scanning, how am I supposed to do this?
Speaker:I'll make sure I do it the exact way.
Speaker:She's now in burnout because of course she is,
Speaker:because she's been doing that for the last 40 years.
Speaker:But, you know.
Speaker:It's part of the
Speaker:challenge isn't it because I think a lot of the mainstream narratives that
Speaker:we see about autism and ADHD,
Speaker:there's a real challenge I'm going to try and really set out.
Speaker:a context here which is I do not believe that researchers
Speaker:and scientists know everything there is to know about lived experience
Speaker:You
Speaker:and I also don't believe that everyone with lived experience knows everything there
Speaker:is to know about the scientific.
Speaker:There has to be a coming together of both worlds and at the moment
Speaker:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker:it doesn't always happen very well.
Speaker:and
Speaker:don't advocate for each other so you don't always get professionals saying
Speaker:we need lived expertise here and likewise you don't always get lived expertise
Speaker:who've had great experience and have trust with professionals.
Speaker:But what you tend to find then is that people communicate things
Speaker:and when it's sticky, you'll know this,
Speaker:your whole background's like media and comms and stuff,
Speaker:you know, the sticky stuff sticks.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:The whole reason I started imposter phenomenon research was this piece of trivia.
Speaker:70 % of people experience imposter phenomenon.
Speaker:And I went on a mission to try and find out who said that,
Speaker:what study, how do we know? And it wasn't a study.
Speaker:It wasn't backed up by science.
Speaker:was actually in an education magazine and it was an opinion piece.
Speaker:But how sticky is that? sticky?
Speaker:So yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker:The thing that I always come back to with imposter is that it's clearly
Speaker:an experience that people recognise and understand to go,
Speaker:aha, that sounds like me and that percentage is believable.
Speaker:And again, we can believe that when people are told off or hear negative things that
Speaker:that is going to have a negative impact.
Speaker:It sounds very real. So in psychology,
Speaker:we become very aware of this kind of,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:things that feel that they should be true but actually psychologically there's
Speaker:a lot of myths that go out there but it also blends one person's experience into
Speaker:See
Speaker:being a unique like one one thing that will happen to people when you know
Speaker:i'm sure you can attest to this when you have a child who has
Speaker:a difference that difference doesn't fit into an e-box
Speaker:No, absolutely not. And the problem is the system,
Speaker:all systems only operate with neat boxes.
Speaker:And so they want to, so we have been funneled into so many little neat boxes that
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:don't, that aren't.
Speaker:a box that's relevant to us but we somehow have to perform the role of
Speaker:the box and then at the end everyone's like,
Speaker:did it work? No, because we didn't have that problem and even if we
Speaker:did that wasn't the right solution.
Speaker:we've had, so you know thousands of my time,
Speaker:hours, has been wasted performing inside neat little boxes when we're actually just
Speaker:a big squiggly mess. So they don't like that.
Speaker:That was it.
Speaker:There is just so much that we don't understand.
Speaker:So all that psychology and psychiatrists can do is to say,
Speaker:you know, we notice these things and these things feel like a pathology
Speaker:or they feel like a pattern. And ADHD to be really blunt
Speaker:is a selection of characteristics that have been reported that
Speaker:a psychiatrist or psychologist has said,
Speaker:we're going to call this this thing.
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:exactly.
Speaker:It doesn't
Speaker:mean that is the only thing, it doesn't mean it's the only way to measure it,
Speaker:nor does it actually mean that we,
Speaker:you know, in the grand scheme of things,
Speaker:don't think enough research asks participants to disclose things about themselves
Speaker:that would allow us to understand if that general population
Speaker:was neurodivergent or not. You just,
Speaker:No, no exactly.
Speaker:you don't know. So we've got a huge amount of work to do scientifically,
Speaker:you know.
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:and I definitely love what you said about the lived experience because whenever
Speaker:I come across someone who has done the textbook learning on a thing,
Speaker:it absolutely doesn't fit mine or my son's lived experience.
Speaker:Not in terms of fully, but enough so that,
Speaker:and the SEND community say this all the time,
Speaker:so that we don't feel believed because we're not matching up to what
Speaker:it said on their bit of paper.
Speaker:And that, think...
Speaker:like you said, being able to hear lived experience and believe that alongside
Speaker:or in the context of or whatever what you've actually also got written
Speaker:on your page is so important, which is why telling the truth back to that
Speaker:is so important because if not enough of us are telling the truth no
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:one else is ever going to hear it.
Speaker:But it's about those systems, and if we talk about patriarch and
Speaker:we talk about systems of oppression and systemic inequity,
Speaker:then we know that if we haven't got education systems that support part-time
Speaker:mums and dads.
Speaker:with children with disabilities,
Speaker:then their lived experience won't come into the research arena because they
Speaker:are excluded. And that comes back down to the access thing is that they can't access
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:that level of privilege to be part of the research.
Speaker:They're called in to be a participant,
Speaker:which is very different to co-producing research,
Speaker:which we know produces better outcomes for everyone.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So it's a very real problem for science when
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:we neglect the barrier.
Speaker:you know, the real barriers that were in place for people to be part
Speaker:of that conversation. It was definitely something that drove me to want
Speaker:to go back to uni, was to say,
Speaker:you know, typically on paper, I wouldn't be someone who would have gone to uni,
Speaker:you know. Now I have and great,
Speaker:Yeah, I love that. Yeah,
Speaker:because, you know, that's good.
Speaker:We should have different voices.
Speaker:definitely, definitely. ~ it's also fascinating.
Speaker:The talk, talk to me a little bit then about your
Speaker:journey into doing what you do now and then we'll come back
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:to this whole authenticity thing and being real.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:But tell me how you went from working in industry to going to work
Speaker:in primary schools? I'm really fascinated.
Speaker:So I left university not knowing what the hell I wanted to do at all.
Speaker:did mention Spanish, which you know,
Speaker:so then everyone was like, you're going to be a translator,
Speaker:you're going to work for whatever that government department is.
Speaker:I can't remember what it's called.
Speaker:That's how little interest I had in that.
Speaker:~
Speaker:And I ended up doing really awful things like I went,
Speaker:no, they weren't awful. They were awful for me before I upset anyone.
Speaker:I ended up in senior account,
Speaker:senior financial telesales. It's literally like not recruitment.
Speaker:That woman was awful to me. Talk about imposter.
Speaker:She ~ was so abusive. She said things to me like,
Speaker:and I'm doing her exact voice.
Speaker:Your voice is so annoying.
Speaker:You sound so stupid. I can hardly believe you went to university,
Speaker:let alone.
Speaker:So that was a really good fun job that I enjoyed immensely.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:media because now I don't actually know if this is true or if this is just
Speaker:the line I gave in my interview but it feels it feels kind of okay so I would
Speaker:see I would be traveling on the underground and I would see posters
Speaker:and I would think I wonder who put that there and I wonder why that is there
Speaker:and I wonder why they use that so that coupled with I'm fascinated
Speaker:by what makes people tick
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:and why
Speaker:people do the things they do and how they do them and how everyone sort
Speaker:of muddles together and just behaviour and everything in general.
Speaker:And so I ended up in media for that reason.
Speaker:~ And I was working my way
Speaker:up through the things, got to director level and it started to just
Speaker:not feel good.
Speaker:~ in my body. Now I wouldn't have said that at the time but I now have more body
Speaker:literacy to be able to say that now.
Speaker:I ended up being signed off sick number of times.
Speaker:~ Even just the open plan office I would have to leave sometimes because somebody
Speaker:behind me is chatting at the water machine,
Speaker:the printer's going off, some arse three rows back is continually bouncing
Speaker:a ball on the floor and I didn't know was neurodivergent then but
Speaker:even or even if I had a sensitive nervous system,
Speaker:sensory system, but I just was like,
Speaker:~ I can't cope. And it got to a point where my biggest client
Speaker:was leaving ~ at the same time as I was starting to
Speaker:get more more interested in the actual workforce and the learning
Speaker:and development of the workforce.
Speaker:So I created a new role for myself,
Speaker:which was head of learning and development.
Speaker:~
Speaker:and moved into that. So I was responsible for all the training
Speaker:~ in the agency ~ and measuring that,
Speaker:designing the training programs,
Speaker:making sure that middle management went on training,
Speaker:not just the junior staff, because every time you send junior staff on training,
Speaker:they come back, try to do the new thing,
Speaker:and middle management go, no, we don't do that around here.
Speaker:And so what's the point? ~
Speaker:all of that kind of stuff. Then I got headhunted from that to go and work
Speaker:in actual adult learning and development rather than just running
Speaker:a department about it in a media agency.
Speaker:And that was probably the worst mistake I've ever made in my entire existence.
Speaker:It was awful.
Speaker:Why?
Speaker:It was awful beyond belief. It was I just I spent the whole time basically
Speaker:in freeze.
Speaker:the environment, I was used to a media agency where it's really chill,
Speaker:really relaxed, wear what you like,
Speaker:do what you like, say what you like,
Speaker:drink at lunchtime, you know, it just was a big family type thing.
Speaker:And this place was absolutely not.
Speaker:And I had no experience of working anywhere that wasn't a media agency.
Speaker:~
Speaker:It was very strict. was very...
Speaker:~ The presence of the owner was...
Speaker:You could feel it in the air. He was a very kind of...
Speaker:~ domineering,
Speaker:scary sort of a bloke. And ~ I didn't have a clue what I was doing.
Speaker:I'd never done what they wanted me to do.
Speaker:The actual technical... And I told them that at interview as well.
Speaker:I've got to stop being so good at interview because...
Speaker:like my Cambridge interview I didn't get my grades but I got through
Speaker:on the strength of my interview.
Speaker:This job I'd never done any of it didn't understand what it was but I
Speaker:got through on the strength of my interview.
Speaker:It's like okay I've got to like how is this happening?
Speaker:~ Anyway so ~ instead of actually teaching me and supporting me and helping
Speaker:me to do it like they said they would they kind of just chucked me in
Speaker:and then kept looking at me down their nose when I kept effing it up ~
Speaker:and it just the heart it felt so embarrassing so shameful so awful it just
Speaker:was a giant imposter the whole way
Speaker:I had to travel and I hate travelling for work anyway they then didn't pass
Speaker:my probation. Literally the only thing I was like how can this be I don't fail
Speaker:at things what's happening so ~ yeah.
Speaker:really
Speaker:interesting though isn't it where the responsibility for that sits because
Speaker:Mmm.
Speaker:you go for an interview and you're sat there and every part of you
Speaker:is going I've never done this before and you say that and it's clear
Speaker:on your application then there is a responsibility from the hirer to kind
Speaker:of know the difference between hiring somebody because they like what they're
Speaker:hearing
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:and presumably they really saw something and liked something about you.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:There's no doubt about that, they wouldn't have hired you.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But there's an accountability and responsibility to kind of go,
Speaker:but will this person thrive in our environment and can we support?
Speaker:year.
Speaker:And they failed you, badly.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly. And I think
Speaker:what they liked about me, what they saw in me,
Speaker:there wasn't an opportunity for that.
Speaker:It was actually quite rigid type place.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And it's not unusual.
Speaker:It's not unusual that we see organizations recruit what they think they need
Speaker:and want, but they don't consider culturally how that's going to fit
Speaker:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker:and how that's going to impact the individual who's different,
Speaker:who comes in. And from that social psychology perspective of,
Speaker:you know, feeling like an imposter,
Speaker:your experience was that you were different and brought in for being different
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:and you weren't given the safeguarding that sat around it.
Speaker:Exactly that. And I think something that I've noticed as well with myself
Speaker:is that I ~ am an action taker.
Speaker:I am like ~ a driver. Like my whole astrology chart is fire.
Speaker:So it's all ideas and start things.
Speaker:But there is this part of me,
Speaker:whether it's my neurodivergence or what,
Speaker:that when I'm in an organization and there's other people and they're
Speaker:all behaving like they understand the system and they know exactly what's happening.
Speaker:Again, I can't access the sensible grown-up part of me that would go,
Speaker:hang on, can everyone stop? I've literally no clue what the hell is happening.
Speaker:I don't know what anyone is talking about.
Speaker:You're all talking gobbledygook.
Speaker:Help me out here. I lose even the...
Speaker:~
Speaker:the consciousness that that's even what's happening.
Speaker:lose access. I remember sitting in meetings and now I think,
Speaker:okay, that's actually dissociation.
Speaker:And they're all looking at me for my answer and I'm sitting there and there's
Speaker:a part of my brain going, you need to say something and I can't,
Speaker:there's literally nothing coming out.
Speaker:Whereas if that was my team or it was in the meter agency,
Speaker:I'd have gone.
Speaker:What is anyone talking about? Like this is not how we do this.
Speaker:But because it wasn't my, we do this,
Speaker:there's very clearly a way that they're doing this and I've got no clue what it is.
Speaker:I think...
Speaker:So let's turn masking upside down then because
Speaker:I think of masking as being quite an interesting way in which neurotypical people
Speaker:talk about neurodivergent people masking to fit in.
Speaker:But then some of the things that I've experienced in corporate and by
Speaker:the sounds of it, some of the things you've experienced.
Speaker:I have to sit there and go, ~ my God,
Speaker:people do just pretend. And we talk about Instagram being a place where people
Speaker:pretend stuff, but
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:This is not new. So online spaces are an extension of real life.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And that real life pretending has always existed in boardrooms and meeting rooms.
Speaker:Mmm.
Speaker:And it only takes one person to pretend that they know what the chisel
Speaker:is for the whole team to feel that it's not psychologically safe to put your hand
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:up and go, actually, are we all talking about the same thing here?
Speaker:Yeah, yeah,
Speaker:Because I don't know what's going on.
Speaker:exactly. And this particular organization and the people I was working with then
Speaker:also made it particularly unsafe on all sorts of levels.
Speaker:So, yeah, that was extremely unpleasant.
Speaker:But anyway, I got out in an unpleasant way.
Speaker:Thank
Speaker:And I then remember looking for different jobs back in media.
Speaker:and just hating it and thinking and just having,
Speaker:you know, that feeling every time I saw an ad and I was like,
Speaker:oh, shall I reply to that? I remember having this epiphany I've written about this
Speaker:epiphany when I got off on platform three at Slough station of all places.
Speaker:If you need an epiphany, I suggest,
Speaker:you know, possibly not that it's not that glamorous and that the
Speaker:sun was shining down. I stepped into it and there was this moment and I thought,
Speaker:hang on a minute, just because I could apply to all of these media jobs.
Speaker:Does it mean that I should or that I have to?
Speaker:Brilliant! So I won't. Okay, so what am I going to do?
Speaker:~
Speaker:That's when everyone started saying,
Speaker:well, we've always told you that you should be a teacher.
Speaker:You created a role that said learning and development.
Speaker:Why don't you just stop pretending you're a teacher and go and be a teacher?
Speaker:Sorry, stop pretending you're not a teacher and go and be a teacher.
Speaker:My mum was a teacher and had an incredible career through the education system.
Speaker:And she had always said, don't,
Speaker:whatever you do, don't do that.
Speaker:You ~
Speaker:But it got
Speaker:to this point and I was like, well,
Speaker:what else am I going to do? So I did apply for the,
Speaker:I can't even remember what it's called now,
Speaker:Schools Direct, where you learn on the job.
Speaker:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker:So I did a year of learning to teach on the job.
Speaker:I did three months of being a nursery assistant in a local independent nursery where
Speaker:basically all I did was wipe bums and pick up smushed up carrots from the floor.
Speaker:What do we say?
Speaker:I was like, I've just gone
Speaker:from like this high-powered London media director on gazillions of pounds
Speaker:of salary to picking up carrot and wiping bums.
Speaker:Okay, ~ fine. Wasn't a mum at that point.
Speaker:And so, yeah, I...
Speaker:did my years training, I loved teaching,
Speaker:and then I got my first job and I loved having a classroom.
Speaker:Now I've got my domain, right,
Speaker:my little team, my class. That's where I thrive.
Speaker:It's like, these are my people.
Speaker:~ And that was amazing and it only started
Speaker:to go wrong when I was pregnant.
Speaker:And when I came back after maternity,
Speaker:there wasn't...
Speaker:there wasn't much understanding for being a new mother.
Speaker:and the needs of a small, highly sensitive baby.
Speaker:~ And there was so much friction and it was just,
Speaker:again, it started to be uncomfortable.
Speaker:I wasn't getting to do the teaching that I wanted to do because I
Speaker:was job sharing and she would do this,
Speaker:so that meant I had to do this.
Speaker:~ The evenings were a nightmare and since I'd been out of maternity,
Speaker:the whole place had got a lot more bureaucratic.
Speaker:There was a lot more rules, there was a lot more guff.
Speaker:~
Speaker:So my stepdad said, right, come on over to my school.
Speaker:He ran a school as part of a seek academy.
Speaker:And I went over there and helped advise them on how to sort out their early years
Speaker:department. That's actually what I'd have loved to have done.
Speaker:What I really wanted to do was to go around schools and tell other people
Speaker:why they were doing it wrong and how to do it better.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I helped them develop a forest school.
Speaker:They completely redid their whole provision and I loved that.
Speaker:But what I noticed while I was pregnant was everybody thinks they know better than
Speaker:I do.
Speaker:Everybody keeps telling me what I should be doing.
Speaker:And now that I'm a new mum, everyone has forgotten about me.
Speaker:Everyone's only interested in the baby.
Speaker:And they also still keep thinking it's their job to keep telling me what
Speaker:I should be doing, what I'm not allowed to do,
Speaker:what I can do, what I can't do.
Speaker:And I thought, I'm actually a bolshe gobshite.
Speaker:And if I'm feeling intimidated and erased by this stuff,
Speaker:what the hell are other people who are already timid or
Speaker:not as ~ confident
Speaker:How are they surviving this? So that was when I decided I want to
Speaker:go into supporting other mums and I started off by training as
Speaker:a holistic sleep coach.
Speaker:~ and then a baby wearer, then a mindful breastfeeding supporter
Speaker:and eventually I realised it's none of the doing.
Speaker:It's not about how we do this or how we do that.
Speaker:It's about who we're being and who we're allowed to be while we're doing
Speaker:any of those things. And so gradually I moved into,
Speaker:~ yes, I work with mothers, but we don't,
Speaker:it's not about the mothering, the parenting,
Speaker:it's about
Speaker:swimming in the systemic motherhood,
Speaker:the patriarchal motherhood that we live in and understanding the systemic.
Speaker:you know, all the reasons why people thought they could tell me what I should
Speaker:do and where that even came from.
Speaker:Like you said before, the right way to do something says who?
Speaker:What, your mother-in-law? Auntie Nora?
Speaker:Where did they get it from? Some book that a bloke wrote in the 70s?
Speaker:No. ~ So, so,
Speaker:you know, transformation and empowerment,
Speaker:but also deconditioning and rewriting your stories.
Speaker:Learning that imposter shame are not yours.
Speaker:They are the patriarchy. It's like whatever I said.
Speaker:What was the word I used?
Speaker:squatting in your temple. ~ Yeah,
Speaker:Yes. ~
Speaker:so now I do a lot of somatic work,
Speaker:a lot of parts work, very little actual straight coaching.
Speaker:It's because it's, the whole, the whole,
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:and I train others as well in my rewilding motherhood method,
Speaker:~ because I really don't think you can coach mothers without bringing
Speaker:in the systemic context that we live in.
Speaker:find it really curious because the journey you've been on is really just this core
Speaker:of identity and who we are. And then when you pair that with the work that you've
Speaker:done around shame and this idea of like how you are seen.
Speaker:And there's that moment for me where you're like,
Speaker:you know, I loved being in that classroom and that was my space and
Speaker:I could stand there and, you know.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:if I, mean obviously burlesque and primary school teaching are different
Speaker:and similar I suppose. You've got to manage that audience that's probably
Speaker:a similarity but hopefully you can,
Speaker:That's my next act, like from primary school teacher to...
Speaker:usually fully clothed when we're teaching but this idea that
Speaker:Usually, yeah.
Speaker:you know that performance part and being a performer is clearly part of who you are.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And
Speaker:I love how that has shown itself in different places.
Speaker:And then you've arrived at this space.
Speaker:So let me ask you now then, so because I've loved having you on this podcast,
Speaker:I think you are so interesting to chat to.
Speaker:And that's really cool.
Speaker:I would...
Speaker:think that you do this all the time.
Speaker:So the fact that you told me, I don't go on to other people's podcasts.
Speaker:I'm like, oh, wow. I would have just assumed you would have done that.
Speaker:Thank
Speaker:And it kind of sits quite neatly in that performance side.
Speaker:So let me ask you, what risks are you going to take moving forward about pushing
Speaker:that performance into your work side?
Speaker:I love that. I do want to be on more podcasts.
Speaker:I'm
Speaker:And I also want to hold more in-person spaces and workshops and things.
Speaker:I have to check in with...
Speaker:some of the things I'm told I should want to do,
Speaker:like speak on stages and travel,
Speaker:you know, this, that and other.
Speaker:And I have to check in with, do I actually want that?
Speaker:Or is that just what I'm told I should want?
Speaker:You know, that's the next level of my ambition.
Speaker:Or is my ambition to be more present with my son and not have
Speaker:to worry about traveling to speak on a stage?
Speaker:~ There is something that I have been dreaming about
Speaker:in my business for years, which I have never fully put out there.
Speaker:because it is more of a peer space
Speaker:and ~ Impostor has Impostor and timing and lots
Speaker:of other things but if it wasn't for Impostor those other things would have been
Speaker:overcome that I haven't actually put out there and I have decided that this year
Speaker:is the year that I am going to do that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's really difficult because I do have to marry it with the real reality
Speaker:of my actual physical practical life.
Speaker:And because of my son's needs,
Speaker:there are lots of things that I would love to think that I'd
Speaker:be ambitious enough to love.
Speaker:striving for them now is likely to cause friction and tension
Speaker:and stress and struggle that ~ make it not worth it now.
Speaker:You know like a four-day retreat or something.
Speaker:Actually that is me hosting my own retreat.
Speaker:I've been wanting to host my own residential retreats for a seriously long time
Speaker:and it's just not... ~
Speaker:doable right now. So rather than push myself to do that risk and hold that space,
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:that has to wait sort of thing.
Speaker:Do know what I mean? What I don't want to risk is his well-being.
Speaker:But where is the line on that?
Speaker:Because at some point, you know,
Speaker:at some point there is...
Speaker:there is a line, like last year went to do a talk in Bristol and he really,
Speaker:really, really, really, really wasn't okay with it.
Speaker:He spent an hour not letting me get in my car because of it.
Speaker:And I was supposed to go there and do the thing and then stay the night,
Speaker:but I held space and held space and held space and held space and in
Speaker:the end managed to get away to do the talk,
Speaker:but the compromise was I didn't stay the night,
Speaker:I came home.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:So that
Speaker:one I was like, I'm absolutely not appeasing this.
Speaker:am absolutely taking this risk and going for this,
Speaker:but I don't need to stay the night.
Speaker:I'll drive home at two o'clock in the morning.
Speaker:it is, everything has to be weighed up at the moment.
Speaker:And that's a really interesting space to be in when I'm helping mothers
Speaker:to empower themselves and to not disappear themselves inside their motherhood.
Speaker:whilst also being aware of there are certain things that I actually
Speaker:do have to disappear inside motherhood right now just because of the way it is.
Speaker:But that doesn't mean I go, well that's it then I'm not going
Speaker:to bother doing anything. It's being able to hold those two and be able
Speaker:to weigh it up as you go.
Speaker:That really sits with that realistic version of ourselves that we put out there,
Speaker:which is saying, you know, I can have ambition and I can have unmet needs.
Speaker:Mmm.
Speaker:And I can also do the risk scanning and horizon scanning and say,
Speaker:I've got the risk appetite, but I can also make the judgment that it's
Speaker:not the right thing right now.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And if we go back to that interview that you had,
Speaker:you know, your risk appetite there to jump.
Speaker:into an organisation doing a job that you'd never done before was there
Speaker:but the accountability person who should have said but we won't do that because it's
Speaker:not the right time didn't say that at the right time
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:and risked your mental health in the process.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Sounds like now you've got control over that.
Speaker:So you are the person who's been that accountable.
Speaker:And it just goes to show, you know,
Speaker:we're given a lot of narratives that say lean in and work harder and you know,
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:there's limit and that's not true.
Speaker:No, and I had
Speaker:this conversation with someone recently because they're talking about pushing past
Speaker:your comfort zone and I said I actually find that narrative really problematic with
Speaker:neurodivergent women because
Speaker:our comfort zone isn't we're just a bit unnervous and sorry we're just
Speaker:a bit nervous and we just need to grow into some expansion.
Speaker:There is a real reason why our system is going that is not safe and if
Speaker:you just push through that without having built up the necessary capacity
Speaker:to hold yourself and to find safety within yourself all you're going
Speaker:to do is completely freak out on the other side and retract even further back.
Speaker:~
Speaker:And sometimes, so ~ I look at it more like,
Speaker:with the Burness thing, people said,
Speaker:pushing past your comfort zone.
Speaker:was like, no, I was really comfortable there.
Speaker:What I needed to do was push out of my discomfort,
Speaker:because actually 49 years of shame,
Speaker:body shame, that's the uncomfortable thing.
Speaker:Prancing around on stage was the comfortable thing.
Speaker:It's like, ~ yes, if I can get out of my discomfort,
Speaker:into my comfort, that's where my magic was.
Speaker:It's not the other way around.
Speaker:Yeah, I love that and you know the whole thing about wanting
Speaker:to revisit imposter alongside risk is when I did the research you know
Speaker:I wasn't speaking to women who weren't taking risks
Speaker:it was the opposite. was speaking to women who had become so adept
Speaker:at scanning the room for risk because that was the default that risk was almost,
Speaker:I'm not going to use super power because that is not a superpower,
Speaker:but it's a tool that they became very well versed in using and continue to use.
Speaker:And so I thought we really,
Speaker:curious to get women on the podcast this season and say,
Speaker:you've taken risks, tell me about that.
Speaker:And actually behind that, you do find imposter experiences and you find that whole
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:thing around. I hear what you're saying around comfort and comfort zones.
Speaker:think there's a big conversation to be had around is a comfort zone being regulated
Speaker:or not. They're very different things perhaps,
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:but we don't.
Speaker:tend to sit and really think about it.
Speaker:We just accept what people say sometimes as if it's true and it's like no,
Speaker:Yes, yes, yeah,
Speaker:I don't think I can do this.
Speaker:yeah, I have a really annoying habit of someone saying something and I'm like,
Speaker:what does that even mean? Why do we say that?
Speaker:I don't even think that's true.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:We like shared language. want to be understood and understand each other,
Speaker:don't we? So we create shortcuts and language that works for some of us
Speaker:but not for all of us. And then if we say,
Speaker:Thanks.
Speaker:if we're a dissenter and go, but I don't agree,
Speaker:what does that mean? You risk ostracising yourself from a group
Speaker:of people and showing yourself up to be different and different.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:The women carries a different weight as it does to men.
Speaker:Personally, yeah.
Speaker:Men who are different are cavalier and gregarious and entrepreneurial.
Speaker:Women who are different are difficult and loud.
Speaker:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker:And actually, I tend to do it,
Speaker:it's usually for the sake of some other community that I feel like I'm a part of.
Speaker:So I heard on a recent episode you were talking about,
Speaker:I think you were talking about overthinking and rumination.
Speaker:And it was really interesting because I listened to that just after
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I'd written two posts about overthinking.
Speaker:And I was like, what does that even mean?
Speaker:Over suggests too much, more than is necessary.
Speaker:I think as much as I need to, I
Speaker:can't
Speaker:help it if that is more than you need to.
Speaker:Maybe if the rest of the world didn't under think,
Speaker:I wouldn't then need to over think.
Speaker:I'm just compensating for your lack of,
Speaker:you know, forethought. It's not my...
Speaker:And this
Speaker:whole thing about thinking is literally what our brains do.
Speaker:We think, we think, we think. It's what you do with the thinking,
Speaker:Yeah, right.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:you know? Are you a brooder or are you somebody who really reflects
Speaker:but then takes action, you know?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And we need not necessarily balance,
Speaker:but you definitely need moments in time where you brood because otherwise
Speaker:you probably wouldn't be able to get rid of that feeling that's really bothering
Speaker:you and you need to have a bit of a moan or stress.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But we also need that really positive thinking,
Speaker:which is the stuff that moves us into momentum and action.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:you know, that thinking for you,
Speaker:if I'm going to go and do the burlesque,
Speaker:it wasn't an overthink. It was a very positive action based,
Speaker:I'm off to do this.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker:And for some of us, you know, we're going on a day out.
Speaker:A lot of people have the privilege of just going on a day out.
Speaker:But for some of us, we need to check,
Speaker:either for ourselves or our children,
Speaker:is there wheelchair access? What will the temperature be like?
Speaker:When are the train times? Can I carry my bag in because I need to have
Speaker:a drink because I need my medicine?
Speaker:We actually have to do that level of thinking in order to be able
Speaker:to access the experience. Whereas people who don't have those additional needs,
Speaker:don't need to think that. They can just assume that someone else
Speaker:has covered everything that needs being covered.
Speaker:experiences, that's not the case.
Speaker:So I have to have done the prior overthinking
Speaker:to compensate for that, to make sure that every eventuality is covered,
Speaker:because if it isn't, it becomes unsafe for either me or my son or both.
Speaker:So I think, yeah, there's definitely a difference between overthinking before
Speaker:a thing as prep and overthinking after a thing as processing,
Speaker:rumination, reflection, whatever.
Speaker:Yeah, for sure, for sure. It
Speaker:you for being on this season of Psychologically Speaking.
Speaker:I'll pop all of your details into the show notes.
Speaker:And yeah, I wish you all the best with your next big thing.
Speaker:I had to resist temptation to ask you what it was,
Speaker:because I got the sense you're not quite ready to reveal that yet.
Speaker:But hopefully you'll back and tell us all about it.
Speaker:Yes I will, thank you.
Speaker:What are you doing on Tuesday the 15th of September,
Speaker:2026? I'm running an adult inset day in London.
Speaker:We'll meet for coffee and pastries in Hyde Park before taking a gentle walk
Speaker:to visit the 2026 Serpentine Pavilion.
Speaker:We're going to talk, we'll notice things,
Speaker:and perhaps we'll borrow a little bit of perspective from architecture
Speaker:to enjoy the first hints of autumn.
Speaker:It will be a low effort event,
Speaker:so I'll email you a list of who is going beforehand with all of their social handles
Speaker:so you don't have to remember on the day.
Speaker:Just coffee, maybe a book, architecture conversation and a few hours carved
Speaker:out just for you. I'm going to pop details on the Adult Inset Day in the show notes.
Speaker:See you there.
